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Turtles from China...again


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Manchurochelys liaoxiensis from Liaoning province.  These turtles have shown up in the forum before, some with the conclusion they are real, some not. 

Here is an incredible display of turtles with fish! However, I am highly skeptical despite coming from a reputable source. They seem to have a halo of color all the way around them. On extreme angles there are some parts where the shell is not attached to the matrix. Even the fish are "on" the matrix, not in it. It is not resin, as I have exposed many parts to a soldering iron.  The crack on that back seems to run under, not through, the turtles but is visible on the front where the turtles are not. It even runs under, not through, a limb.

 

To me, a best case scenario is that these "real" fossils were placed onto a stone slab, but that seems like a lot of unnecessary work. If the turtles are casts that are put onto the matrix, is there an easy way to tell?  Would x-ray be useful as the turtle and the matrix are likely different densities if the turtles were added on? 

 

And can anyone recognize the fish? If they are millions of years apart, that might answer the question. but where are the heads of the fish?

 

Llastly, for a fascinating read on fakes, check this out: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265208436_Fossil_fakes_and_their_recognition

This is not the site of a seller, so it should not break the rules of this forum...if I am not mistaken. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

 

 

 

turtles china.JPG

turtle edge 2.JPG

turtle verso.JPG

turtle edge 1.JPG

turtles 2.JPG

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In a few places, there look to be small gaps between the shells and the matrix which seems somewhat suspect to me.

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It does somewhat seem like to me maybe they were grafted onto another piece of stone. I am totally not the person to ask on this piece though, but figured I'd throw out my first impression.

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@Crazyhen may tell more...

But something is odd with them IMO.

Picture 4 (and maybe 5) shows bubbles on the turtle shell which points into the direction of being a cast...

Next thing is the crack: it is highly unlike that such a crack is not making identifiable damage on the fossils (even if good repair you would see).

IMO some casts have been placed on a real plate (fishes or whatever it is seems to be real).

Look for real turtles here for example:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245186119_A_second_specimen_of_Manchurochelys_manchoukuoensis_Endo_Shikama_1942_Testudines_Eucryptodira_from_the_Early_Cretaceous_Yixian_Formation_of_western_Liaoning_China

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5408756/

https://steinkern.de/steinkern-de-galerie/kreide/unterkreide/china/ordosemys-liaoxiensis-ji-1995-14914.html

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I'm with Pemphix on this one for the reasons he stated.  In addition the halo around the bones is not natural and I dont see weathering/pitting in the bones that you see in this image from the paper that Pemphix posted, everything is smooth.

Cervical-vertebrae-of-Manchurochelys-manchoukuoensis-Endo-Shikama-1942-LPM-R00008.thumb.png.bf6cbb21495a3365e1b31bc9f95b85fd.png

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I am with others on the suspicion that this is fake.  I understand from the fossil dealer there that they are using 3D printing to produce fake fish fossils.  I am not sure if they are now using 3D printing to produce turtles but it is not unlikely.

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Hmm, I'm not so sure this is a fake. If it's a fake, at least it's very well done!

 

This turtle here is 100% real - I prepped it myself. Part of the carapace and most of the bones were still covered by sediment (not finished yet).5d31bc97379b1_Ch1441SchildkrtenondetUntKreideSihedangzhenLiaoningCN.thumb.jpg.8f2a07d397e2d42637d22e32e923f4df.jpg

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Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC).

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THanks Oilshale. It looks like the sims and tail of your specimen are in the matrix, not on it (at least partially). 

The links in Pemphix also show very distinct characteristics, such as vertebral body facets and distinct tailbones. One of the things I noticed is that for a supposedly amazing specimen, none of the tails or necks show truly distinct bones or facets on any of the three turtles. 

It is also interesting to see the quality and the matrix of the fossils in the research papers and compare them to what I have. Hard to say from pics alone, but it looks like my matrix is not the same as Oilshale's or the research papers. 

 

 

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On 7/19/2019 at 7:50 AM, Crazyhen said:

I am with others on the suspicion that this is fake.  I understand from the fossil dealer there that they are using 3D printing to produce fake fish fossils.  I am not sure if they are now using 3D printing to produce turtles but it is not unlikely.

I have some experience with 3d printers and I do not see how you would do this on one, there are very few FDM machines with capacities that can print something like this without having to do it in multiple pieces which we would be able to see, there are also no layer lines there while a lot of detail is shown which would be hard to do on FDM. Also this would take very long and if a different technology was to be used other than FDM it would be incredibly expensive.

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1 hour ago, sneakyelf said:

......

It is also interesting to see the quality and the matrix of the fossils in the research papers and compare them to what I have. Hard to say from pics alone, but it looks like my matrix is not the same as Oilshale's or the research papers. 

 

 

 
Did I get that right - the turtles are already in your possession? Then it should be easy to prove a fake or authenticity.

Take a cotton ball with acetone (or nail polish remover) and rub gently on a bone. If it is made of polymer (from a 3D print) the surface becomes sticky.
I would also try if the bones are just glued on or stuck into the sediment - do a little prep work.
At least the bones are - as far as I can see - anatomically correct. If it's a fake, then it's made by a professional (and not the kind normally sold on online).
That the matrix looks different doesn't say much. I have half a dozen turtles from China and all from different locations - every matrix looks different.
 

Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC).

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To me, this looks very fake.  Not saying it is, just looks that way to me.  I wish you the best of luck

 

RB

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