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Snug1190

Need some help with identification WNY fossils

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Snug1190

Hi we've found these fossils in buffalo ny and based only on google searches we see resemblance with eurepterids as well as straight shelled nautiloids. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The photos shown are all different fossils I have them labeled a through c to make identification discussions easier. Thankyou in advance, we're learning! 

Screenshot_20190807-200858_Messages.jpg

Screenshot_20190807-200830_Messages.jpg

Screenshot_20190807-200916_Messages.jpg

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ynot

Welcome to TFF!

I would go with nautiloids. The preservation and shape is off for eurypterids.

Wait for other comments.

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Mark Kmiecik

Eurypterids have a more trapezoidal shape to each segment as opposed to the more rectangular segments of nautiloids. 

 

trap.gif   versus    rect.png   with the taper towards the head.

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Fossildude19

Welcome to the Forum. :)

 

These look like orthocone cephalopods.

Probably Spyroceras sp.

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jdp

I think the first is definitely a eurypterid though not Eurypterus. The second seems arthropod as well, but I could be wrong there.

 

I don't see anything that screams cephalopod about either of these to be totally honest.

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hemipristis

I too would go with a eurypterid for the first. The rest I will defer to others

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Rockwood

This is a tough one. I have one observation though.

I don't think I've seen cephalopod shells shadow themselves this way. Eurypterids that I've seen are quite ghost like though.

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Kane

I am leaning nautiloid as well... If these were found in Buffalo, the closest Bertie Fm Silurian outcrop would be north, at Delaware Park near the zoo, and more substantial Silurian outcrops toward and along Lake Ontario.

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Fossildude19

Knowing exactly where the first one was found would be helpful. 

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jdp

I've collected eurypterids up through the Permian so age doesn't concern me.

 

If A is a nautiloid, then I do have to wonder why the living chamber is subdivided in such a strange way.

 

Similarly, I have to wonder why the tip of B keeps bending at the septa, which are most robust parts of the shell.

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Kane
44 minutes ago, jdp said:

I've collected eurypterids up through the Permian so age doesn't concern me.

 

If A is a nautiloid, then I do have to wonder why the living chamber is subdivided in such a strange way.

 

Similarly, I have to wonder why the tip of B keeps bending at the septa, which are most robust parts of the shell.

I think where it may be an issue is in terms of reported eurypterids in WNY as being mostly in the Bertie / Fiddler's Green Fms. If the Spyroceras present in the other image is indicative of being found at the same location and source material as the mystery item, that would put this pretty squarely in the Devonian. As far as I know, eurypterids in NY occur, at latest, in the Silurian/Devonian boundary. I think we need to hear more from the OP about location and if the other recognized specimens were found in the same strata or not. 

 

But I do agree that the mystery item's morphology puts making a confident ID as nautiloid in question. There is also the intriguing feature of a vertical line/crease that runs just off-centre where the specimen tapers, which is very reminiscent of the same being seen on the flattened Spyroceras

 

More info, and more images will be needed to resolve this one!

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Greg.Wood

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Malcolmt

I am thinking it screams eurypterid but not lacustrus.. Looks a bit like a hughmilleria socialis which have bee found around Pittsford New York. Pics not the best

 

@fossilcrazy   whats your thoughts you have collected that area

 

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jdp
2 hours ago, Kane said:

I think where it may be an issue is in terms of reported eurypterids in WNY as being mostly in the Bertie / Fiddler's Green Fms. If the Spyroceras present in the other image is indicative of being found at the same location and source material as the mystery item, that would put this pretty squarely in the Devonian. As far as I know, eurypterids in NY occur, at latest, in the Silurian/Devonian boundary. I think we need to hear more from the OP about location and if the other recognized specimens were found in the same strata or not. 

 

But I do agree that the mystery item's morphology puts making a confident ID as nautiloid in question. There is also the intriguing feature of a vertical line/crease that runs just off-centre where the specimen tapers, which is very reminiscent of the same being seen on the flattened Spyroceras

 

More info, and more images will be needed to resolve this one!

 

I'm finding references to styloneurids (Hallipterus) up through the Katsberg at the very east, so there does seem to be a good record of eurypterids in the Devonian of New York. Third specimen could be Spyroceras (or not) but I see no reason to conclude that A and B are anything but eurypterid.

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Kane
28 minutes ago, jdp said:

 

I'm finding references to styloneurids (Hallipterus) up through the Katsberg at the very east, so there does seem to be a good record of eurypterids in the Devonian of New York. Third specimen could be Spyroceras (or not) but I see no reason to conclude that A and B are anything but eurypterid.

But are there references to them being found in Western NY? I'm not saying it can't be eurypterid, but I'm still a bit skeptical (perhaps until I see more photos and information on the location of the finds). In the possible eurypterid column may also be the curious curvature on specimen B, which I've never seen on any of the regular straight-shelled nautiloids from WNY. 

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Fossildude19

Picture of C, brightened cropped and rotated.

 

Screenshot_20190807-200916_Messages.jpg.a2ef3f5171895549e46a45775977c624.jpg

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Fossildude19

Here are some Devonian eurypterids from Linsley's 1994 "Devonian Paleontology of New York"

 

Eury1.JPG   Eury2.JPG

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westcoast

The very pointed end in pic B does look more like a telson than tip of nautiloid. The other end doesn't scream nautiloid either.

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jdp
47 minutes ago, Kane said:

But are there references to them being found in Western NY? I'm not saying it can't be eurypterid, but I'm still a bit skeptical (perhaps until I see more photos and information on the location of the finds). In the possible eurypterid column may also be the curious curvature on specimen B, which I've never seen on any of the regular straight-shelled nautiloids from WNY. 

I'm not super concerned about the specifics of the locality; localities with this level of preservation are often very spatially restricted (there's one eurypterid site I know of where the eurypterid-bearing beds are literally no more than 3 inches thick with about 3 feet of lateral exposure and that's it). It's really about finding the right pocket. 

 

However, if this does seem to be a new occurrence, it would be worth showing these to an expert to determine whether they're scientifically important. I'd suggest Dr. James Lamsdell of West Virginia University...he's currently The Guy as far as eurypterid paleontology goes.

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piranha

Eurypterids have 12 segments.

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minnbuckeye
18 hours ago, Snug1190 said:

Screenshot_20190807-200858_Messages.jpg

Has this specimen been wetted? I am most concerned if it was highlighted and the "head area is just surrounding matrix that has been darkened to give the impression of belonging with the body???

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jdp
49 minutes ago, piranha said:

Eurypterids have 12 segments.

Looks like it transitions to a telson unit after 12 though. It's pretty hard to tell is there are segments in the final 1/4 of the fossil.

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piranha
5 minutes ago, jdp said:

Looks like it transitions to a telson unit after 12 though. It's pretty hard to tell is there are segments in the final 1/4 of the fossil.

 

 

Your count is incorrect.

 

image.thumb.png.b7bf12a524908d9fd99aa360ff238764.png

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jdp

I'm hesitant to count some of the lines at the base given the quality of the photos. 

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jdp

That said, I'm a vertebrate specialist and not a eurypterid specialist. I think it would be useful to show this to someone who knows Paleozoic arthropods.

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