Peace River, FL Is this a tusk?

[shark22]

So I have been going to my usual spot in the Peace River for the past  5 years, always finding something larger or new! This time it looks to be a tusk? This was actually nearby where I found the mastodon/gompothere molar 2 years ago. It was in bedded in the river bed and when it was removed, some piece broke off. It's also fairly heavy for it size. Also, I do have a fossil permit. Can some link me or provide me info about legal concerns of owning this?

[fossilus]

If this is a probuscan tusk it should have a cross hatched pattern on the broken end. (Sometimes this is hard to see)

[shark22]

There is cross hatch

[shark22]

Laws state that selling of fossil mammoth ivory is illegal. What about gompothere or smaller elephants??

[fossilus]

So you may already know this, but the angle tells whether it is mammoth or mastodon. Sorry I can't knowledeably comment on the legality but would assume that if you have a fossil permit you should be able to do what you want as I've seen Florida fossil tusks for sale on the internet.

Your tusk looks to be of nice quality.

[shark22]

It's actually really hard to see the cross hatch but it seems to be present, as for determining angles...not happening

21 minutes ago, fossilus said:

 

 

[digit]

If you've found teeth and tusk pieces associated and coming out of the river bank, chances are there may be more. You should be fine chasing back any fossil material that is exposed on the bank in order to preserve the fossil before it weathers out and falls apart. Generally, digging (prospecting) in the banks is illegal as it causes too much erosion and FWC will show their displeasure if you are caught making a great mess of the banks. If you believe there is enough left in the bank to be a scientifically important specimen (SIS) then it would be best to contact the Florida Museum of Natural History (FLMNH) who issued you your fossil permit and let them know you've found something potentially important. They are permitted to make a more extensive excavation if warranted.

 

As to ownership of Florida vertebrate fossil material, the FLMNH always has the right of first refusal on any SIS. Generally, a small piece of tusk is not the kind of fossil that they'd call dibs on but would likely be a fossil specimen they'd welcome if it was donated. There are a number of fossil hunters and guides who have online fossil stores or sell on well-known auction sites all of the "surplus" fossils that they don't need in their collections. I've seen a variety of mammal bones, teeth and tons of shark teeth for sale online that were found in the Peace River--virtually all of it being of little interest to scientists but great interest to some collectors.

 

Proboscidean tusks do have some special issues due to association with the modern elephant ivory trade. I know there are dealers who specialize in Woolly Mammoth tusks from the arctic permafrost (now sadly on the wane). I'm assuming they have taken special steps to authenticate that their material is not confused with or subject to the restrictions of modern tusk material. Most Florida fossil hunters would love to have a nice hose-nose tusk in their collection. I've only found fairly small fragments that are distinctive but hardly a top-shelf prize. I'm wondering why you would be looking to turn such a nice personally found specimen into cash. If you are planning on keeping the main piece and are inquiring about selling smaller broken fragments associated (but not attachable) to the nice tusk section pictured above, I don't think you'll have to worry much about the legality as there is likely very little market for smaller frags. I find small pieces every time I'm out in the Peace sifting for fossils and I usually keep the nicer ones (and mammoth/mastodon tooth frags) to give to kids passing us by in the river while we're hunting.

 

Hope this answers some of your questions--or at least prompts some new ones.

 

If you are worried about the legality of selling the above piece, I'll save you the stress and take it off your hands.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[shark22]

Thanks for the post. I'm not selling that piece. I have about 6 1-2inch pieces that came off when I picked it up from the river bed. I'm going to use them for jewelry. Also, I never dig, I snorkel.

[digit]

None of those associated pieces can be attached to the larger piece? Would be a fun puzzle to try to reconstruct.

 

There's been so few days in the last couple of years that the stretch of the Peace River that I hunt (the over-hunted Brownsville to Arcadia section) that have had anything close to clear water conditions. I've been tempted to take snorkeling gear to the river but I can't even remember the last time I could see my shoes while standing in the river. Our shortened "dry season" and periodic pulses of rain within the dry seem to keep the coffee colored water looking like someone has been adding too much cream.

 

If you've got smaller pieces of tusk that you are going to use for jewelry, you might consider consolidating them with some of the stabilizers used for solidifying fossil material (assuming they may be flaky or weak) and see if you can trade some material with someone in a lapidary society. You might be able to work out a deal for some really cool mammoth cabochons (mammochons?) which would be a great way to display smaller pieces.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[abyssunder]

1 hour ago, shark22 said:

There is cross hatch

Can we see that?

[Mark Kmiecik]

2 hours ago, shark22 said:

It's actually really hard to see the cross hatch but it seems to be present, as for determining angles...not happening

 

Photograph the end. Look at a negative of the photo. That may make the cross-hatch more distinct and allow you to determine the angle.

[Plantguy]

Looks like you are finding some relatively large pieces of stuff...very nice!

 

Yep the cross-hatch will be neat to see....my first reaction was the exterior with that porous look in places down by your fingers in the 2nd photo and the fractured areas there looks more like dugong rib stuff i have than tusk. Cant wait to see what critter it is...thanks for showing us! We like things on the forum that are not obvious...it adds suspense and a bit of sleuthing which is part of this crazy addiction. 

 

Continued hunting success...

Regards, Chris  

[Sanrique]

Wow nice find

[Shellseeker]

Quote

So I have been going to my usual spot in the Peace River for the past  5 years, always finding something larger or new! This time it looks to be a tusk? This was actually nearby where I found the mastodon/gompothere molar 2 years ago. It was in bedded in the river bed and when it was removed, some piece broke off. It's also fairly heavy for it size. Also, I do have a fossil permit. Can some link me or provide me info about legal concerns of owning this?

 

I have frequently bought an sold mammoth/mastodon teeth & tusks fragments in Florida Fossil Shows. Many came from the Peace River. There is no law that prohibits buying/selling of Fossils in Florida.

A number of years back , I found this lower jaw Mastodon Tusk in the Peace River:

 

You can see the cross_hatching of the Schreger lines in this last photo. If you see any similar lines on your tusk or on any of the pieces which broke off, take a photo and attach it to this thread.

 

I am amazed that you were able to survive and hold bottom in the Peace River.. Most sections are over flood stage, with muddy water in treacherous currents.  My favorite feeder creek is currently 12 feet deep !!!!!  Stay safe out there.  Jack

[dalmayshun]

:About the buying and selling...with a fossil permit in florida, one has to file a year end collection catalogue of mammel fossils...then the state or university might well request the piece as a gift....when I have an unusual piece like this, I send along a photo together with the listing of myriad bones , deer antler turtle pieces etc. Good for keeping records and must make for an amusing review by paleontology students...you know, 1500 pieces of turtle shell etc . 

[Bone Daddy]

There is no applicable law in Florida against owning or selling fossil ivory.  

 

[Shellseeker]

On 8/10/2019 at 11:20 AM, dalmayshun said:

:About the buying and selling...with a fossil permit in florida, one has to file a year end collection catalogue of mammel fossils...then the state or university might well request the piece as a gift....when I have an unusual piece like this, I send along a photo together with the listing of myriad bones , deer antler turtle pieces etc. Good for keeping records and..  for an amusing review by paleontology students...you know, 1500 pieces of turtle shell etc . 

 

..then the state or university might well request the piece as a gift...

We should be very clear about what this means:

In the state of Florida:

1) On private property, the property owner owns all fossils, artifacts, etc found on his property. There are some obscure exceptions that relate to human burial sites.

2) On Property owned by the State of Florida, fossils hunters can find and own ALL shark and marine fish teeth.

3) On property owned by the State of Florida (including most river and creek beds) has the right of 1st refusal on all land based fossils. The default is finders_keepers.

The state rights are administered (for at least the last 25 years) by the the Director of the Vertebrate Research Lab at University of Florida , Gainesville  -- Richard Hulbert.

 

First, let me say that it is music to my ears whenever Richard requests a fossil that I have found. Out of the hundreds I have asked his opinion /identification,  he has indicated that 6 of my fossil might be of value to one study or another that graduate students were engaged in.. I immediately sent all 6 in the next outgoing mail.

 

While request is a nice term, let's be clear. Richard can legally confiscate any fossil found on Florida state lands. In casual conversation, Richard told me he had confiscated exactly 1 fossil in 25 years. I try to explain to novice hunters in the State of Florida how idiotic they sound worrying about the STATE taking their fossil away. Sometimes they catch on.

I saw this tested once. I became aware of a Saber Cat tooth that was discovered in a Florida location that had not previously produced Saber Cat material.  During an identification process, Richard became aware of the tooth, and requested it as a donation to the Research Lab. The fossil hunter who found the tooth, considered the monetary value and refused. Richard did not enforce his legal right to confiscate the tooth.

So, whatever you find in the state of Florida, it needs to be far more valuable and rarer than a Saber Cat tooth before you should worry about confiscation.

 

Jack