The Jersey Devil Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) Hi everyone, I have this interesting tooth from the Wenonah formation (Late Campanian) of New Jersey. It matches best with Cretalamna, but it has a nutrient groove and one of the cusplets has a “crown” around it. It is 5/8 inches. It is the first of this tooth type I had ever seen being found, so I am basically baffled as to the species. Any help is greatly appreciated! @siteseer @MarcoSr @Al Dente @MikaelS @sagacious Edited August 19, 2019 by The Jersey Devil 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 It reminds me more of a lower lateral Scapanorhynchus than Cretalamna. The preservation is very nice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 19, 2019 Author Share Posted August 19, 2019 11 minutes ago, Al Dente said: It reminds me more of a lower lateral Scapanorhynchus than Cretalamna. The preservation is very nice. I’ve considered goblin before, but I still feel like it is something else. The pictures might not be good enough to show many of the differing features. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 interesting tooth. definitely different than what I'm used to seeing from there. Compares somewhat to several genera, but doesn't compare well to any. 1 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 20, 2019 Author Share Posted August 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, hemipristis said: interesting tooth. definitely different than what I'm used to seeing from there. Compares somewhat to several genera, but doesn't compare well to any. Hmm that’s exactly the thought I had at the moment I picked it up. I really want to find out what it is though... “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Nice tooth. The tooth features really don't match exactly any genus that I'm familiar with. Marco Sr. 2 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 9 hours ago, The Jersey Devil said: Hmm that’s exactly the thought I had at the moment I picked it up. I really want to find out what it is though... 52 minutes ago, MarcoSr said: Nice tooth. The tooth features really don't match exactly any genus that I'm familiar with. Marco Sr. Sounds like we have a quorum 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankh8147 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Not a shark tooth guy but I wouldlean towards Cretalamna too...here are two goblins that look semi- similar (with the position of the cusps) but I don't think it's a match.. isolated shark teeth are tough! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 20, 2019 Author Share Posted August 20, 2019 Thanks guys! I will try my best to get better pics of the tooth with other angles, including the strange enameloid around one of its cusplets. I’ll also put it next to a Scapanorhynchus lower lateral so that the differences between them are more clear. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 On 8/19/2019 at 7:46 PM, The Jersey Devil said: Hmm that’s exactly the thought I had at the moment I picked it up. I really want to find out what it is though... I think I'm where you are on this one. I'll look forward to seeing some additional photos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 5 hours ago, sagacious said: I think I'm where you are on this one. I'll look forward to seeing some additional photos. Alright, I got some new photos. I hope these are good enough, you can see the ridges around one of the cusplets and small ones on the lingual surface of crown base. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) Edited August 22, 2019 by The Jersey Devil “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 To me, the closest may be Brachycarcharias lerichei (below), but it's not a great fit, admittedly. The enamaloid around the cusplets in yours is particularly intriguing. 3 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 The short cusp like folds on the base of the side cusp that I've circled are common on posterior teeth of several cusped species. Not sure what the function of these are. Modern Carcharias have this feature on their posterior teeth. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Al Dente said: The short cusp like folds on the base of the side cusp that I've circled are common on posterior teeth of several cusped species. Not sure what the function of these are. Modern Carcharias have this feature on their posterior teeth. My first impression of your tooth was that it seemed to be most like a Carcharias sp. tooth. Seeing the above pictures and agreeing with Eric, I think that Carcharias is definitely a good possibility. Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 7 hours ago, hemipristis said: To me, the closest may be Brachycarcharias lerichei (below), but it's not a great fit, admittedly. The enamaloid around the cusplets in yours is particularly intriguing. 2 hours ago, Al Dente said: The short cusp like folds on the base of the side cusp that I've circled are common on posterior teeth of several cusped species. Not sure what the function of these are. Modern Carcharias have this feature on their posterior teeth. 40 minutes ago, MarcoSr said: My first impression of your tooth was that it seemed to be most like a Carcharias sp. tooth. Seeing the above pictures and agreeing with Eric, I think that Carcharias is definitely a good possibility. Marco Sr. Thanks so much for the input! I can definitely see it being a Carcharias, but the three that are normally found here in the Cretaceous are C. samhammeri, Eostriatolamia holmdelensis, and Odontaspis aculeatus, which are all much less robust. Could it be a new species of Carcharias? I know that sand tigers are always a mess and can get very confusing. By the way, I noticed that the root isn’t preserved in a couple areas around the nutrient groove, but there still seems to be the original groove preserved toward the base of the root. Would you say that the nutrient groove used to be a very narrow one? “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 3 hours ago, The Jersey Devil said: Thanks so much for the input! I can definitely see it being a Carcharias, but the three that are normally found here in the Cretaceous are C. samhammeri, Eostriatolamia holmdelensis, and Odontaspis aculeatus, which are all much less robust. Could it be a new species of Carcharias? I know that sand tigers are always a mess and can get very confusing. By the way, I noticed that the root isn’t preserved in a couple areas around the nutrient groove, but there still seems to be the original groove preserved toward the base of the root. Would you say that the nutrient groove used to be a very narrow one? I was actually thinking C. samhammeri but your specimen is definitely not a perfect match to the specimens that I have or to ones like the upper tooth shown below on elasmo.com. Fig. 4 Carcharias samhammeri — Upper Demopolis Fm. (early Late Campanian), Prentiss Co., MS I also questioned the nutrient groove as the pictures seem to indicate damage/root erosion. I believe that the below picture definitely indicates that a nutrient groove is present but the damage/root erosion distorts the size/width of the groove. I believe it is narrower than it appears. Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 2 hours ago, MarcoSr said: I was actually thinking C. samhammeri but your specimen is definitely not a perfect match to the specimens that I have or to ones like the upper tooth shown below on elasmo.com. Fig. 4 Carcharias samhammeri — Upper Demopolis Fm. (early Late Campanian), Prentiss Co., MS I also questioned the nutrient groove as the pictures seem to indicate damage/root erosion. I believe that the below picture definitely indicates that a nutrient groove is present but the damage/root erosion distorts the size/width of the groove. I believe it is narrower than it appears. Marco Sr. Yeah I definitely agree the nutrient groove used to be narrower. Except it definitely doesn’t resemble any C. samhammeri I’ve seen. I’ve also never seen the enameloid ridges around a C. samhammeri cusplet. Maybe this shark was unusually large or the tooth grew a different way? Doesn’t really seem pathological though. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 @MarcoSr Maybe these comparison photos with an upper lateral and a lower anterior C. samhammeri will help. I don’t know what tooth position it would be if it’s samhammeri. Seems too erect and robust for an upper and just a different shape/robustness for a lower. Next post includes it with an upper anterior and lower lateral samhammeri. 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) Edited August 22, 2019 by The Jersey Devil 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 7 hours ago, The Jersey Devil said: @MarcoSr Maybe these comparison photos with an upper lateral and a lower anterior C. samhammeri will help. I don’t know what tooth position it would be if it’s samhammeri. Seems too erect and robust for an upper and just a different shape/robustness for a lower. Next post includes it with an upper anterior and lower lateral samhammeri. Compared directly to those other teeth, it doesn't look like a good match. Maybe Steve @non-remanié might give us an opinion on this tooth. It has been awhile since my last contact, but I'll also try an e-mail to G. Case to see if I can get an opinion from him. Marco Sr. 1 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 6 hours ago, MarcoSr said: Compared directly to those other teeth, it doesn't look like a good match. Maybe Steve @non-remanié might give us an opinion on this tooth. It has been awhile since my last contact, but I'll also try an e-mail to G. Case to see if I can get an opinion from him. Marco Sr. Thanks a lot Marco Sr! I appreciate it. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El_Hueso Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 This entire topic has been nothing but pure eye candy for me. I wish I had more to add than that but I just wanted to share. These are some fantastic photos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, El_Hueso said: This entire topic has been nothing but pure eye candy for me. I wish I had more to add than that but I just wanted to share. These are some fantastic photos Thanks! “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 My e-mail to G. Case bounced back as a bad address so I couldn't get an opinion. I did get an opinion from Dr. Bruce Welton who is very knowledgeable about Cretaceous sharks from Texas but who is not familiar with Wenonah sharks. It really helps with an id if you are familiar with the fauna. Based upon what Bruce states below, I'm really beginning to question whether the tooth has a true nutrient groove or whether we are seeing strictly root damage/erosion. "My first pass impression is this tooth appears to be a lower lateral, from a more distal tooth file, of a cretoxyrhinid. Teeth similar to this are found in Archaeolamna and Cretolamna. The Wenonah tooth differs from lower laterals of Archaeolamna in being labio-lingually thinner, with a broader based erect cusp, subangular basal edge between the mesial and distal root lobes, and appears to lack a basal median triangular depression at the labial cusp base. Most of its attributes are those of Cretolamna, however, the photos suggest the presence of a lingual groove on the root protuberance, an attribute absent in the teeth of both genera. I'm not sure if this is real or just an artifact of preservation. I am not familiar with the Wenonah sharks, but I would be surprised if this tooth represents a unique species not previously known from the assemblage. Although the latter is always possible, I would want to see the entire collection of lamniform teeth before coming to a taxonomic decision." Marco Sr. 2 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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