Rory Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Hi, This is my first reptile skeletal find, and I'm absolutely thrilled, especially since I didn't expect to find much at the end of the summer. It's from between staithes and mulgrave. I know they're vertebrae X2, however I'm not sure what exactly. They're also in amongst what could be other bits of bone, the top bit looks like some hard outer exoskeleton (scales/shell?) Although it could equally just be the mudstone concretion. Any ideas? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossil_sea_urchin Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Stunning! You found plesiosaur. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 hours ago, fossil_sea_urchin said: Stunning! You found plesiosaur. Hello Fossil_Sea_Urchin, I'm wondering if you could help this invert. guy (and maybe some others as well) understand what characteristics of the vertebra distinguish them from say mosasaur or ichthyosaur for example. I seem to remember that it has something to do with the convex/concave nature of the end of the vert, but just can't recall enough to have it in my ID toolbox. Thanks, Grandpa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossil_sea_urchin Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 49 minutes ago, grandpa said: Hello Fossil_Sea_Urchin, I'm wondering if you could help this invert. guy (and maybe some others as well) understand what characteristics of the vertebra distinguish them from say mosasaur or ichthyosaur for example. I seem to remember that it has something to do with the convex/concave nature of the end of the vert, but just can't recall enough to have it in my ID toolbox. Thanks, Grandpa Well, It's jurassic so that counts Mosasaurs out. If you look at an Ichthyosaur vertebra then it's usually quite short and tall if you look at it from the side, if you look at a plesiosaur vertebra on its side you can see it looks much longer and like a fallen over hourglass. I'm not sure if the top picture is of the same thing as the bottom so I can't say this is definite, but it's my opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 So, while awaiting a response to my above querry, (Fossil_Sea_Urchin likely is off-line at the moment) I went to my search engine, did some image searches, and think I have come up with a diagnostic table for the three vertebra in question. Would those in the know please tell me if I have it correct or not. Mosasaur vertebrae Convex - - - Concave Pleiosaur vertebrae Concave - - - Concave Ichthyosaur vertebrae Concave - - - Concave w/ hour-glass cross-section ( ends deeply concave, vertebrae thin, two ends almost meet in center.) Oops, FSU just posted as I hit send. Let's see what he said 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, fossil_sea_urchin said: Well, It's jurassic so that counts Mosasaurs out. If you look at an Ichthyosaur vertebra then it's usually quite short and tall if you look at it from the side, if you look at a plesiosaur vertebra on its side you can see it looks much longer and like a fallen over hourglass. I'm not sure if the top picture is of the same thing as the bottom so I can't say this is definite, but it's my opinion. Thank you FSU. After looking on-line and using your helpful clues, I too can now see that this is a plesi. Thanks for the education! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Pictures are worth a thousand words. I should have included these. Mosasaur vert. Pleisosaur vert. Icthyosaur Vert. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 Thanks so much, so it's a plesiosaur? It certainly looks most like the middle item in the photo above. Any ideas on which section? Neck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 Someone else actually suggested they are from the flipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Plesiosaur flipper Museum of Natural History L.A., CA On your specimen, can you see evidence of a spinous process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pemphix Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 hour ago, grandpa said: So, while awaiting a response to my above querry, (Fossil_Sea_Urchin likely is off-line at the moment) I went to my search engine, did some image searches, and think I have come up with a diagnostic table for the three vertebra in question. Would those in the know please tell me if I have it correct or not. Mosasaur vertebrae Convex - - - Concave Pleiosaur vertebrae Concave - - - Concave Ichthyosaur vertebrae Concave - - - Concave w/ hour-glass cross-section ( ends deeply concave, vertebrae thin, two ends almost meet in center.) Oops, FSU just posted as I hit send. Let's see what he said This is not a good feature to distinguish or ID vertebras. For example: Mastodonsaurus giganteus (Triassic Amphibium) Concave - - - Concave w/ hour-glass cross-section ( ends deeply concave, vertebrae thin, two ends almost meet in center.) https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rainer_Schoch/publication/235732311_Comparative_osteology_of_Mastodonsaurus_giganteus_Jaeger_1828_from_the_Middle_Triassic_Lettenkeuper_Longobardian_of_Germany_Baden-Wurttemberg_Bayern_Thuringen/links/02bfe512f2db5091c6000000/Comparative-osteology-of-Mastodonsaurus-giganteus-Jaeger-1828-from-the-Middle-Triassic-Lettenkeuper-Longobardian-of-Germany-Baden-Wuerttemberg-Bayern-Thueringen.pdf?origin=publication_detail It is at least a combination of all available facts (shape, size, stratigraphy, palecology....) that makes an ID. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Pemphix said: This is not a good feature to distinguish or ID vertebras. Oh darn! Just when I thought I'd found a good rule of thumb for my tool box. Thanks a lot for the clarification and for the article. I love learning new stuff I know nothing about - and that's a wide field of opportunity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamL Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Pretty sure You dont find Mosasaur here guys. Quite hard to see from the photos. Is there definitely bone structure showing? Maybe could be crocodile. 1 Yorkshire Coast Fossil Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I like croc too John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neanderoll Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Dude! Nothing to add - other than this is Sick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiamL Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Showed my friend these who's brilliant at identifying Yorkshire bone and yes, these are crocodile verts. Very nice find. Yorkshire Coast Fossil Hunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMert Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Rare find. A good old reference book on jurassic marine reptiles: https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibliography/61785#/summary 1 My sites & reports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory Posted September 4, 2019 Author Share Posted September 4, 2019 8 hours ago, LiamL said: Showed my friend these who's brilliant at identifying Yorkshire bone and yes, these are crocodile verts. Very nice find. How did he know? Are the other bits fossilised plating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory Posted September 4, 2019 Author Share Posted September 4, 2019 Species? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 On 04/09/2019 at 9:08 AM, Rory said: How did he know? Are the other bits fossilised plating? While the vertebrae of both plesiosaurs and marine crocodiles are both platycoelous, the vertebrae of marine crocodiles are much longer compared to the size of the vertebral centrum than those of plesiosaurs. In addition, the waisted/hourglass shape is much more pronounced in marine crocodile vertebrae as compared to the more barrel-shaped plesiosaur vertebrae. As to your second question: no, I don't think those are scute, as those evicting have surface ornamentation, which is lacking here. The adhering pebbles are, moreover, both too think and irregular to be crocodile osteoderms... On 04/09/2019 at 9:12 AM, Rory said: Species? Species ids difficult to tell with marine crocodiles in general, but I've seen most Yorkshire marine crocodilie material being attributed to Steneosaurus sp., as this species was around earlier than the other contender, Metriorhynchus spp.. As to species, probably S. bollensis, though see the below thread for an argument that Yorkshire finds should most likely be attributed to S. gracilirostris: 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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