Sawfish Vert ?

[Shellseeker]

Out hunting today. Interesting location.

Mostly marine, but did pick up some Equus teeth at the end.

 

I have a couple of Sawfish verts. Is this another ?

 

[siteseer]

Hi Jack,

 

That's shark and I've seen them identified as tiger shark or Carcharhinus.  I might lean toward tiger shark because that form is uncommon in the Bone Valley Formation and tiger shark teeth are less common than most Carcharhinus species.  I have never seen that shape in the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed.  Maybe one of the longtime Bone Valley or Lee Creek collectors will have a more informed opinion.

 

Jess

[hemipristis]

1 hour ago, siteseer said:

Hi Jack,

 

That's shark and I've seen them identified as tiger shark or Carcharhinus.  I might lean toward tiger shark because that form is uncommon in the Bone Valley Formation and tiger shark teeth are less common than most Carcharhinus species.  I have never seen that shape in the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed.  Maybe one of the longtime Bone Valley or Lee Creek collectors will have a more informed opinion.

 

Jess

siteseer, I concur with your assessment: a charchariniform shark vert.  I too have seen vents of this shape ascribed to both tigers and Carcharhinus sp.  (see the Smithsonian's book on Lee Creek, Vol III). The differences/distinctions are a little too nuanced for me, so I just ID them as Carcharhinifom.

[Shellseeker]

I would have been satisfied with just figuring out that this was a shark vert, rather than sawfish. I just knew that there had to be TFF members who had access to shark (and sawfish) vert photos that would help me. I can count the number of shark verts I have found hunting the Peace River for the last 10 years on 1 hand.

11 hours ago, siteseer said:

Hi Jack,

 

That's shark and I've seen them identified as tiger shark or Carcharhinus.  I might lean toward tiger shark because that form is uncommon in the Bone Valley Formation and tiger shark teeth are less common than most Carcharhinus species.  I have never seen that shape in the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed.  Maybe one of the longtime Bone Valley or Lee Creek collectors will have a more informed opinion.

 

Jess

 

At this location, no Megs, numerous Makos, a few GWs and Hemis. In the photo below, the tooth on the left comprises 60% of shark tooth finds, and G. cuvier about 20% ... no older tigers. a few lemons, and I think I found a cow shark upper once.

 

9 hours ago, hemipristis said:

siteseer, I concur with your assessment: a charchariniform shark vert.  I too have seen vents of this shape ascribed to both tigers and Carcharhinus sp.  (see the Smithsonian's book on Lee Creek, Vol III). The differences/distinctions are a little too nuanced for me, so I just ID them as Carcharhinifom.

 

I pay attention to references, and downloaded a rather large pdf... got this chart on page 150...  Thanks you!!! Just the kind of reference I was seeking. 

Jack

 

I love TFF, mostly because I appreciate the expertise of experts like the two of you.

 

[The Jersey Devil]

I agree the vert is a Carchariniform shark vert. Sawfish verts don’t have any foramina on the lateral surfaces.

 

But I was wondering, what’s the vert below the vert in question? My guess is a whale/dolphin vert?

 

Do you have any ideas as to why shark vertebrae are so rare in the peace river?

[hemipristis]

14 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

 

I pay attention to references, and downloaded a rather large pdf... got this chart on page 150...  Thanks you!!! Just the kind of reference I was seeking. 

I love TFF, mostly because I appreciate the expertise of experts like the two of you.

 

Thank you and you're welcome!  You found the very photo that I had in mind from the LC  reference.

[MarcoSr]

Below are pictures of a number of extant shark centra from "A Guide to Identifying Shark Centra from Southeastern Archaeological Sites" Kozuch and Fitzgerald 1989.  A link to the paper is also below.  You can see in the pictures that centra from different genera/species can look very similar.  Also the shape of the centra can change along the vertebral column.

 

 

https://www.academia.edu/5653950/A_Guide_to_Identifying_Shark_Centra_from_Southeastern_Archaeological_Sites_Kozuch_and_Fitzgerald_1989?auto=download

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

[Shellseeker]

22 hours ago, The Jersey Devil said:

I agree the vert is a Carchariniform shark vert. Sawfish verts don’t have any foramina on the lateral surfaces.

 

But I was wondering, what’s the vert below the vert in question? My guess is a whale/dolphin vert?

 

Do you have any ideas as to why shark vertebrae are so rare in the peace river?

 

I am almost certain that the vert below is a whale vert. There may be some this size (5-6 inches diameter), but I have seen many dolphin verts and none of them approached this size. Would appreciate comments form anyone who knows the upper end of dolphin verts size.  It was my find fossil find of the day. I stepped on it , thinking it was a rock.

 

Once again, there are lots of Peace River hunters who frequent TFF and I would be curious on their impressions. My experience is that there are very few fossil fish vertebrates of any types. My only thought is that shark vertebrae are comparatively fragile to other fossils in the very rocky rough and tumble Peace River environments. I have seen concrete blocks and huge trees moved miles in the summer and early fall rainy season. I usually find these vertebrae while digging in clays and mud rather than the more common heavy gravel.

[Shellseeker]

13 hours ago, MarcoSr said:

Below are pictures of a number of extant shark centra from "A Guide to Identifying Shark Centra from Southeastern Archaeological Sites" Kozuch and Fitzgerald 1989.  A link to the paper is also below.  You can see in the pictures that centra from different genera/species can look very similar.  Also the shape of the centra can change along the vertebral column.

 

 

https://www.academia.edu/5653950/A_Guide_to_Identifying_Shark_Centra_from_Southeastern_Archaeological_Sites_Kozuch_and_Fitzgerald_1989?auto=download

 

Thanks, 

I will enjoy reading it, and especially appreciate the photos...

In these situations, I am never after perfection. just approximation.. There are relatively FEW common shark teeth in the Peace River environments.  Lemon is the most common, followed by Tiger, Bull, Dusky, Hemipristis, Meg, Mako, ..certainly less than 10 species.

Maybe generated by a Florida shark expert, but 10 Vertebrae photos of the most common fossil sharks (by teeth) in Florida that would give the large volume of Florida shark teeth hunting novices, what the associated vertebrae look like.   Hmmm, Maybe I could research that...

[MarcoSr]

When you first made this post I wanted to post a few pictures of a sawfish vertebra because they are very distinctive looking lacking foramina which your posted vertebra has.  However, I had donated all the examples that I had.  However, yesterday I found an Eocene sawfish vertebra (1" in diameter and 1/2 " thick) during a collecting trip in Virginia.  Below are pictures.

 

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

[Shellseeker]

21 hours ago, MarcoSr said:

When you first made this post I wanted to post a few pictures of a sawfish vertebra because they are very distinctive looking lacking foramina which your posted vertebra has.  However, I had donated all the examples that I had.  However, yesterday I found an Eocene sawfish vertebra (1" in diameter and 1/2 " thick) during a collecting trip in Virginia.  Below are pictures.

 

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

Thanks for your photos and clarifications...

Nice find, and would be extremely rare in the Pleistocene - Pliocene environment that I hunt. It seems to be an almost exact match to this one I found in 2012. 

Questions:

1) You indicated Eocene, but it might be that verts from Eocene Sawfish and Pliocene Sawfish are close matches. I only have ever found 2 of these, making them extremely rare possibly due to age or river churn with rocks.

2) Is the center hole rare, common or always present in the Sawfish verts you find in Virginia. As @Harry Pristis indicates in this 2012 post, the hole is rare to non existing in shark verts we find in the Peace River formation.

 

I love TFF.  Where else could I ask these kinds of questions and expect an answer?

[MarcoSr]

5 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

 

Questions:

1) You indicated Eocene, but it might be that verts from Eocene Sawfish and Pliocene Sawfish are close matches. I only have ever found 2 of these, making them extremely rare possibly due to age or river churn with rocks.

2) Is the center hole rare, common or always present in the Sawfish verts you find in Virginia. As @Harry Pristis indicates in this 2012 post, the hole is rare to non existing in shark verts we find in the Peace River formation.

 

 

Your other posted specimen does look like a sawfish vertebra.  Pristis vertebrae haven’t changed much at all from the Eocene to present to an untrained eye.  Other ray vertebrae can look very similar to sawfish vertebrae but there isn’t much written up about them.

 

The center hole is always present in the sawfish vertebrae that I find.  A sawfish is a ray but I think the following on sharks also applies to rays. Sharks have an embryonic stage where a notochord is present, but then during development in the womb, this structure is replaced with a spine.  The remnants of this notochord become the nucleus pulposus, a jelly-like center of intervertebral discs.  This doesn’t fossilize so you have a hole in the very center of the shark centra. The size of this hole in relation to the centra overall size helps determine the size of the shark at birth according to a researcher who is currently studying thousands of shark centra which I donated.  So all shark centra have this hole but some are extremely small or get filled in with hard matrix.

 

 

Marco Sr.

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, MarcoSr said:

The size of this hole in relation to the centra overall size helps determine the size of the shark at birth according to a researcher who is currently studying thousands of shark centra which I donated

 

Scientific knowledge and insight from a fossil life well spent.  Thanks for sharing.