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please tell me your opinion anyone with knowledge of this was shaved by an ancient knife tool cetera it is fossilized piece of bone found just a small check along with bison teeth

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i have no idea i need other views i would like to know where it was found i do not know the age knowing the location could tell us the age knowing the age might help

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I think one would need to do a microscopic study of the bone surface to have any hope of determining this from such a small piece.

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49 minutes ago, Jman said:

How else could it be shaved?any theories?

Fragmented by trampling would seem a likely scenario to be considered.

What makes you say it's been shaved ? 

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Mark Kmiecik

A glacier picks it up and rubs it against the ground for a distance. Fast-moving water in a river forces it to scrape against a boulder. A cyclone picks it up and flings it against a cliff. It gets stuck in an animal's hoof and gets rubbed against other rocks. It falls from a mountain peak after a heavy rain. An otter uses it to break open clams. A child throws it and it hits a stone. Someone's fighting a war and it gets hit by an exploding projectile. Caveman throws his spear or shoots his arrow and misses the intended target. Someone drives a car over it and it gets stuck in the tread. Some kid with a pocketknife decides to scrape it to see what happens.

 

There's hundreds of other ways it could get "shaved", but I don't have the time to list them all. Also, shaving would tend to leave a relatively flat and homogeneous surface, so I think this stone was caught between a rock and a hard spot and got chipped. Depending on cleavage characteristics of the minerals that make up the specimen, chipping may leave a very rough or a very smooth surface.

 

When you consider all the different ways and the amount of time over which they could happen, there are trillions of rocks out there that have this common trait. Determining the exact cause in a case such as this is 99.999% impossible.

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For starters that's a bone.secound there is a shave on the surface as if a Razer shaved it clean..your examples are nice imagination thank you but iv hunted my whole life and messed with bones a hundred times..that shave mark is to clean to be anything other then a sharp objects doing it..take a good look.. as a matter of fact an ancient stone tool would only be doing it by chopping with force as in an axe motion I'm assuming to get the marrow out...

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5 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Fragmented by trampling would seem a likely scenario to be considered.

What makes you say it's been shaved ? 

I'm talking about the shave mark on the surface not the fact that is broken

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6 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Fragmented by trampling would seem a likely scenario to be considered.

What makes you say it's been shaved ? 

You can't see on the surface?

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Have to ask, why do you think it is bone? Looks like a rock or concretion to me. Better pictures of the end maybe?

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13 minutes ago, Jman said:

You can't see on the surface?

The resolution, lighting and focus on your photos do not allow us to see the details you see.

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Harry Pristis

I agree with JohnJ.  I, also, don't see the details you describe.  But, based on logic alone, green bone doesn't "shave" as with a razor.  Native Americans grooved and broke off sections of bone isolated by the grooves.  Then they ground the rough edges.

 

If it were permineralized bone when altered, a facet may have been produced by natural forces as colorfully described earlier by Mark Kmiecik.

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Yeah could be naturally..but I don't know how anyone figures you can't shave green bone..I can shave it like a stick

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Harry Pristis
8 minutes ago, Jman said:

Yeah could be naturally..but I don't know how anyone figures you can't shave green bone..I can shave it like a stick

 

Show us how you can shave flat a green bone with a local Native American tool.

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6 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

Show us how you can shave flat a green bone with a local Native American tool.

Actually I think it would be quite possible to do as long as you don't need long curly shavings. In fact if you had the tool one could match it to the cut.

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Harry Pristis
6 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

Show us how you can shave flat a green bone with a local Native American tool.

 

11 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Actually I think it would be quite possible to do as long as you don't need long curly shavings. In fact if you had the tool one could match it to the cut.

 

I think Rockwood and Jman would be convincing if they both produced the flat-shaved patch on a green bone with a local NA tool.

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Good point. It will be light soon. I'll give it a try.

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Aloha.

Hi Jman, I see what you mean. I just don think it is as unequivocal as you hope.

From my little experience with working fresh bone and my medical knowledge about fractures in living bone I would say it is not completely impossible to get that kind of "shaving" with a flint edge (english is not my native tongue, so I am not sure what exactly is implied by "shaving", I assume the cutting of thin layers parallel to surface?).

Possible, but in my opinion by far not the only or first explanation. I have seen flat pieces chipping off from fossil and subfossil bone way more often than I would have liked...

One point in favour is coloration, it looks as if the flattened surface got exposed before the piece got its (latest) patina.

But with the pictures online here its hard even o tell if it is bone.

 

To find out if this can be a human predation mark on bone I think you would indeed need to look at microscopic detail (context could boost the probability of course, if it was found at a butchering place, close to artifacts etc.)

Best Regards,

another J

 

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4 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

 

I think Rockwood and Jman would be convincing if they both produced the flat-shaved patch on a green bone with a local NA tool.

I suppose it depends on just how you call shave, flat, and tool, but it seems to work. 

IMG_5207a.jpg

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Harry Pristis
3 hours ago, Rockwood said:

I suppose it depends on just how you call shave, flat, and tool, but it seems to work. 

 

Clearly, it does depend on those definitions, which makes "seems to work" dubious.

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11 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Clearly, it does depend on those definitions

Is your argument that stone is too brittle to hold the angle necessary to truly shave, as opposed to scraping ?

But then you still need to set a minimum for the number of re-flakes one gets. :)

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Wow guys thanks for the discussion..that's impressive everyone has a thought on it..to the person from a medical background thanks for you input.. originally I thought if someone had a large blade and brought it down with a chopping motion to break the bone and that's the beginning of the chop that left more of a shaving mark..and yes the area I found it was an area where many natuve amarican artifacts where found on land and put in a museum and that which if I show the other side is definitely bone...and I found it in a rock bed on a large river were the artifacts where found on land above it leading to my thoughts

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