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UK Sauropod vert?


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FF7_Yuffie

Hello, any thoughts on this? Sold as UK Sauropod from Abingdon. I've struck out so much with these, but fingers crossed ... 

 

11 x 12 x 5.5cm

 

Many thanks

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FF7_Yuffie

Hi, a second one. This one measures 10 x 9 x 6.3. Same location, sauropod. 

 

Many thanks as always.

 

 

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Both Pliosaur in my opinion. 

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I agree to, to some degree.  I can say plesiosaur.  Wheter it is elasmosaur or pliosaur, I will default to others who know better (see post immediately above this).

 

 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

I actually  saw a Cetiosaurus-vertebra from Abingdon being offered by an American dealer recently. However, as the ventral side of the vertebra was missing, there was not enough information to positively ID it. And with this material: when in doubt, it's a pliosaur...

 

So too here. I find it difficult to ID either of these vertebrae as either sauropod or pliosaur, as I'm only familiar with the latter, and the diagnostic features of pliosaur vertebrae - paired subcentral foramina and a mamilla or clear notochordal pit - are difficult to read in these specimens - though they do seem to be there.

 

The pit can't be seen on the one side of the first vertebra, but may be covered by adhering matrix on the other, while the other specimen seems to have a slight depression that could be the notochordal pit in the middle of its vertebral centrum. As to the subcentral foramina, one can clearly be seen in the first specimen, with it being possible to imagine another equidistant the midline of the vertebra, either still covered in matrix or damaged and expanded. The second vertebra clearly has a pair of subcentral foramina on its left side, though it's unclear whether these are matched on the other side of the vertebral midline.

 

One last thing that looks kind of off to me here (when considering these specimens as pliosaurian) are the articulation surfaces for the neutral arches. In my experience these normally are more flat and stretch the length of the vertebra, which is not the case here. So, though I'm inclined to still say pliosaur, the fact that so many things are slightly off might be a positive indication for these beings sauropod specimens after all (although I believe these would be more square looking in axial outline)...

 

Let's see what @paulgdls and @Welsh Wizard have to say.

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Troodon

Not much is published.   A bit of similarity to your top one but its hard to be certain.  Second one looks marine.    The supplier needs to provide you comparative data to support his claim?  He's the one that needs to convince you and not with just words.

 

Paul Upchurch & John Martin 2003 paper

Screenshot_20210312-194322_Drive.jpg.3e8af6442524b3dc9aace7559a8d51ff.jpg

 

 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

One strategy often applied by vendors is: "if it doesn't walk like a pliosaur or quack like a pliosaur, it must be Cetiosaur". Which is simply not true. It may still be a pliosaur sitting very quietly on its nest ;)

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Welsh Wizard

Morning

 

I’ve come to the conclusion that the bulk of these vertebrae for sale are pliosaur. I’ve purchased a few over the years as they are impressive and look good displayed.

 

I agree with @Troodon that there is little published information available but if you do a comparison with sauropods vertebrae they just don’t look the same.

 

With that in mind, you do get sauropod and other dinosaur remains in the Kimmeridge Clay of the UK.

 

Not sure I’m much help but it’s an interesting subject.

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FF7_Yuffie

Thanks for the help everyone.

The second one, I'd have got if the price was lower---even if misidentified as a Pliosaur, it's a really good example of one I think and a nice size. Unfortunately it's carrying a Sauropod vertebra pricetag. 
 

I'll look a bit more into the top, since there's a couple of doubts about--see if I can get info from the seller, or an email of someone to take a look. 

 

Thanks for the help, everyone.

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Strangely,  "chez nous" ( I really miss that phrase in English) it was the other way round, a couple of verts, for a long time believed to be pliosaurian and even published in this capacity in a marine reptiles review, were discovered to belong to a sauropod. I held them in hand, they are really big and heavy, felt like twice the size of any pliosaurian ones I've seen

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FF7_Yuffie
1 hour ago, Welsh Wizard said:

Here’s an interesting link with some great pictures:

 

http://www.elywildspace.org.uk/dinosaurs.html

 

 

 

Thanks for the link. They're some good photos. I see quite a lot sold from Abingdon listed, so will be a good page to refer to.

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Troodon

A paper that describes Cetiosaurus is listed below.  Unfortunately the images provided are not the best for vertebrae ID but may be of some help.   I share those images for those that don't have access to the paper.

 

The anatomy and taxonomy of Cetiosaurus (Saurischia, Sauropoda) from the Middle Jurassic
of England.  Paul Upchurch & John Martin, 2003

 

Screenshot_20210313-084107.thumb.jpg.1d9fe1f14d937274c2d7180d19ce3c8b.jpgScreenshot_20210313-084133.thumb.jpg.02c589c20079b24183079315efe5bc1a.jpgScreenshot_20210313-084320.thumb.jpg.21a55a0f5579ae172406c48843703d02.jpg

Screenshot_20210313-084237.thumb.jpg.7223fde098bead5bc7320fb972c6cb81.jpg

Photos to compare against.

 

Museum photo

1560223247_Cetiosaurus3UK.thumb.jpg.9b1d39da01ec55c7e2a2a0372125a3b3.jpg

 

SV-POW photo 3/2009

Screenshot_20210313-080711.thumb.jpg.f07de7c98f2b1a6427af3dae1e9ad665.jpg

 

 

 

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(Posts removed)

 

Please remember, no seller links allowed.

 

 

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Ok sorry and sorry to break into this topic. Hope it’s allowed (Please remove if not) but I think it fits with the discussion. This vertebra is advertised as a UK cetiosaurus but I think it’s pliosaurus as well? 
 

B28A02F1-AB03-4B80-90C7-C9C5B4AB4ACE.jpeg

401E773C-94EB-4F0B-81F9-273655CC80F5.jpeg

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
On 3/13/2021 at 10:15 PM, sjaak said:

Ok sorry and sorry to break into this topic. Hope it’s allowed (Plessers remove if not) but I think it fits with the discussion. This vertebra is advertised as a UK cetiosaurus but I think it’s pliosaurus as well? 
 

B28A02F1-AB03-4B80-90C7-C9C5B4AB4ACE.jpeg

401E773C-94EB-4F0B-81F9-273655CC80F5.jpeg

 

Don't worry too much about it, Niels. Forum rules stipulate we should let threads flow in any direction they want, so as not to block interesting developments in a discussion. And your question fits in with the topic perfectly ;)

 

But, yes, unfortunately there is too little information - and not much of a suggestion at that - in these photographs to determine whether this might be a sauropod vertebra. That is, it looks plesiosaurian to me.

 

Interestingly, I don't think it's without reason that the seller themselves even has this categorized under "marine reptile" rather than "dinosaur" :DOH:

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8 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Don't worry too much about it, Niels. Forum rules stipulate we should let threads flow in any direction they want, so as not to block interesting developments in a discussion. And your question fits in with the topic perfectly ;)

 

But, yes, unfortunately there is too little information - and not much of a suggestion at that - in these photographs to determine whether this might be a sauropod vertebra. That is, it looks pliosaurian to me.

 

Interestingly, I don't think it's without reason that the seller themselves even has this categorized under "marine reptile" rather than "dinosaur" :DOH:

Yes. I noticed that too. As we would say: “per ongeluk expres” (don’t know how to translate that).

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
1 minute ago, sjaak said:

Yes. I noticed that too. As we would say: “per ongeluk expres” (don’t know how to translate that).

 

:default_rofl:

 

I think "accidentally on purpose" would work  :BigSmile:

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FF7_Yuffie
4 hours ago, sjaak said:

Ok sorry and sorry to break into this topic. Hope it’s allowed (Please remove if not) but I think it fits with the discussion. This vertebra is advertised as a UK cetiosaurus but I think it’s pliosaurus as well? 
 

B28A02F1-AB03-4B80-90C7-C9C5B4AB4ACE.jpeg

401E773C-94EB-4F0B-81F9-273655CC80F5.jpeg

 

 

I think I've had this one looked at on here too. Consrnsus was marine reptile along with the others that the seller has listed.

 

 

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On 3/12/2021 at 3:12 PM, FF7_Yuffie said:

Hi, a second one. This one measures 10 x 9 x 6.3. Same location, sauropod. 

 

Many thanks as always.

 

 

1.jpg

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Vertebra centrum lightly prepped with a few in-situ from the Kimmeridge Clay for comparison if it helps. 

Pliosaur vertebra centrum in-situ.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1a.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1b.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1c.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1d.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1e.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1f.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1g.jpg

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.... Should have added ( and not for sale at any price) 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
1 hour ago, DE&i said:

Vertebra centrum lightly prepped with a few in-situ from the Kimmeridge Clay for comparison if it helps. 

Pliosaur vertebra centrum in-situ.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1a.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1b.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1c.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1d.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1e.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1f.jpg

Pliosaur vertebra centrum 1g.jpg

 

Nice find! I wish we had places around here where you can find stuff like this :o

 

In any case, looks like another pliosaur, based on the paired subcentral foramina (although the strong hourglass shape is less common in pliosaurs, but not unusual)?

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FF7_Yuffie

I had the first vert looked at, here's the reply.

 

"I have asked ********* to take a look, he thinks that it is a large Plesiosaur dorsal centrum, certainly not pliosaur and in his humble opinion unlikely to be dinosaur."

 

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