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Help! Nothosaurus from Poland?


PetrosTrilobite

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PetrosTrilobite

I want to buy this tooth. The seller write that is Nothosaurus/Nothosaur from Poland but i don't know if nothosaur teeth are know from Poland. @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon do you know?

 

noth.JPG

notho.JPG

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ziggycardon

I also have a Nothosaurid tooth from the same seller, they come from the quarry near Plaza which means it probably belongs to either Cymatosaurus or Germanosaurus (both nothosaurids)

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

Seems a bit worn, and thus hard to make out the striations for a positive ID, but it certainly looks like it might be one. I'd be a bit hesitant about this particular specimen, however, as there are multiple features that don't quite add up for me in addition to the lack of pronounced striae, such the lack of striations towards the tooth apex and the way the base of the tooth looks. The density of striations also looks to be way less than what I'd expect of a nothosaurid tooth. So I'd hold off for a better sample... It's likely just a worn nothosaur tooth, but there's a lot we don't know about Triassic species yet, so something else - including fish, in my opinion - cannot be excluded.

 

Generally, I don't think you'd be able to identify a nothosaur tooth to species, by the way, except for if there's a clear size differentiation between species occurring at the same locality. But even then, you might not be aware of a third hitherto unidentified species... Still, interesting bit of knowledge, @ziggycardon. What are your sources?

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FF7_Yuffie
Posted (edited)

Hi, Nothosaurs are found in Poland, I have one of these too--I think from same seller.

 

Nothosaur teeth look very similar to the rarer Tanystropheus---the seller I got my Tany from said Notho has striations that go down to the base which is what distinguishes them.

 

Thr shape of this seems a little different though. Notho teeth Ive seen are either quite noticibly curved or very straight. This having just a slight curve is a bit odd

 

Edited by FF7_Yuffie
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FF7_Yuffie

This is one I got (a German one, cant find a pic of the Polish one)

Screenshot_20210608-074943_Chrome.jpg

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
15 minutes ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

Thr shape of this seems a little different though. Notho teeth Ive seen are either quite noticibly curved or very straight. This having just a slight curve is a bit odd

 

That's just because of the way the tooth is positioned in the matrix: we're not looking at it laterally, but rather mesially (from the front).

 

17 minutes ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

Nothosaur teeth look very similar to the rarer Tanystropheus---the seller I got my Tany from said Notho has striations that go down to the base which is what distinguishes them.

 

Striations on Tanystropheid teeth indeed don't go all the way down to the base of the tooth, but the area that's free of striae on these teeth is normally larger than is the case here. A secondarily distinguishing feature is that the density and sharpness of striations may be less on Tanystropheus sp. teeth. Below is an image of how you'd expect a Tanystropheus tooth to look.

 

2108_0.JPG.cb4442a950a53f0d733db7ff3698f0ef.JPG

 

 

7 minutes ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

This is one I got (a German one, cant find a pic of the Polish one)

Screenshot_20210608-074943_Chrome.jpg

 

Exactly, this is how you'd expect a Nothosaurus tooth to look: clear striations from top to bottom (some further images for comparison below). As said, the specimen presented by OP does appear to be nothosaurid, even if seen mesially, but appears to be very worn (that having been said, I do have a nothosaur coracoid from the same locality that also has a high degree of shine, with the preservation at this site simply appearing to be very rolled).

 

1185846997_Nothosaurussp..thumb.jpg.780cc79a99aef5325970b02db4897e09.jpg2047752859_Nothosaurussp.2.3cmtooth.thumb.jpg.7fc5d22a5694436651aa2ad96191d26d.jpgnothosaur-tooth-triassic-germany.jpg.2c9afe16c6baffc95b2276431cdd2bc4.jpg

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ziggycardon
5 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

@ziggycardon. What are your sources?

@sander helped me with my ID at the paleontica forum, he has done loads or research on those teeth.

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sander

Hello guys!

Some info on the location (page 58):

http://www.stratigraphie.de/perm-trias/Triassic_Workshop_2007_guide.pdf

 

Plaza is old in terms of the Triassic. it is Aegean in age. The tooth Yuffie showed is an Illyrian one from Rüdersdorf, and the teeth Pachy-Pleuro send to me look like Muschelkalk-Keuper Grenzbonebed, which is Longobardian (according to the last paper I read, but maybe it has changed again).

The thing is, between Aegean and Longobardian are 4 other substages. that is a lenghty amount of time. from start of the Aegean until the end of the Longobardian is about 10 million years. Animals do not stay the same over 10 million years so there will be small differences. The thing is that I have not yet seen a Nothosaurus species having been described from Aegean layers. Until now I have only come across Cymatosaurus and Germanosaurus for this age in Europe. The oldest Nothosaurus remains in my collection are from the Bithynian substage. I can't tell the difference between Cymatosaurus and Germanosaurus by their teeth, simply becasue I haven't seen their teeth in real life yet on the holotypes. If you want to name this tooth then it will have to remain a bit vague. Cymatosaurus falls under the Pistosauroidea and Germanosaurus under Nothosauroidea. if you want to give it one name then it will have to be Eosauropterygia, because that is the most precise name you can get that encloses both previously named groups.

 

Or you can have a go yourself at trying to find out the differences between the teeth here:

https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ia/revisionofsaurop36riep/#page/1/mode/1up

 

In my eyes it looks like the teeth on Cymatosaurus are more finely ribbed than those on Germanosaurus. But I can only see this on the fangs and unfortunately within species there is a lot of variation possible.

I have tried to look at teeth of Tanystropheus in this way, but almost every example of that genus seems to have different grades of striation. This may also be the case in other genera of Sauropterygians. 

 

also a disclosure; I am not a professional. I just read a few papers on it.

It is always better to contact a paleontologist who works on these animals than to rely on photo's from fossil dealers or amateur paleontologists.

 

Kind regards,

Sander

 

 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

Well, with your exposition on Triassic substages (I still haven't worked out all the details of the various overlapping ways by which the Triassic is subdivided - or am, at least, not as familiar and comfortable with it yet); your identification of the age and provenance of the example specimens posted (Jack's tooth does indeed look like Rüdersdorf, the two bigger of my specimens are indeed Upper Muschelkalk [MoMa III], though one is German, the other French); and your knowledge on Plaza and its fauna, I must say you sound quite convincingly authoritative ;)

 

It's interesting to hear about Germanosaurus and Cymatosaurus to, as I hadn't bumped into these genera myself yet. Reading up on them on their respective Wiki-pages, however, it sounds like there's still quite a bit of uncertainty concerning these genera too, seeing as species have been shifted between the two... With general body and skull morphologies apparently being so similar, I guess this would also complicate attribution of genus or species based on teeth alone - unless diet would've varied so markedly as to leave traces in tooth ornamentation.

 

The same holds true for tanystropheid teeth, which share common characteristics due to shared diet: in this case I don't think the striations are diagnostics (moreover as interspecific variation seems to have existed, if tanystropheids were not actually heterodont to a degree), but rather one needs to look at the base of the tooth to check for absence of striae. And while it is as a rule true to be wary of any information found online outside of academic circles - above all vendors - the are couple that I do trust to provide reliable information and exercise the necessary caution, as they specialise in Triassic fossils and know they have frequent interaction with professionals in the field, first and foremost Rieppel himself... Even then one still needs to verify their findings, but I do find them useful sources of information and images otherwise not easily accessible without visiting a multitude of museums yourself (this, as always: used with caution! And, if possible, of course I do try and visit museums in person and take plentiful photographs - though even there you'll not always find fully accurate information) :)

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