Need help with identifying what this is, or more what it could have belonged to.

[Aidedtomcat97]

This is from Morocco, phosphate mine eocene in age containing marine deposits.

 

I have done the good old tongue test and it sticks, suggesting fossilised bone/cartlidge. But the scale/skin texture is really throwing me (i dont think it is a skute it just doesnt have the correct surface?) . Any help would be appreciated

 

Many Thanks,

Ben

[ted coulianos]

possibly a fragment of sand dollar test judging from the texture and cross-section.

[Aidedtomcat97]

Isn't it a little to thick for a sand dollar? Or is that about the right thickness

[Carl]

I think this matches a piece or turtle shell a little better than a sand dollar.

[jpc]

I agree with Carl.. this looks more turtley, but it has an unusual texture.  

 

[Aidedtomcat97]

Thanks @Carl and @jpc turtle does seem fitting but the texture is really throwing me, do you guys have any suggestion as to what it could be, do you think it could perhaps be turtle scales or is that out of the question, many thanks,

Ben

[jpc]

Not turtle scales.  They do not fossilize.  Pieces of turtle shell can generally be identified to genus by their texture/pattern.   This one just has a texture I have never seen.  But then I do not deal with Miocene turtles from Morocco, which I assume is from a  marine turtle.

[digit]

Correct. The scutes (the proper term for "scales") that cover the bones of a turtle shell are made of keratin (like fingernails) and do not fossilize as they are protein. The underlying bones do have a texture and this texture is reminiscent of softshell turtle--though not identical to any of the more modern (Miocene-modern) softshells that I'm familiar with from Florida.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Aidedtomcat97]

Thanks Ken thats a nice insight i will have a bit more of an indepth look into soft shell turtles from eocene period. It would appear this texture present doesn't seem to fit with any of the "norms", I'm sure it will have a very simple explanation, once I can identify what this specimen came from. Thanks again

[jpc]

Thanks for explaining keratin turtle scales, Ken.  I sometimes forget that we need to explain stuff we take for granted to new members.  

[doushantuo]

Perhaps crocodilian( e.g. Maroccosuchus or Dyrosaurus  ) ?

edited: taxon added

Edited October 13 by doushantuo

[Carl]

I agree that turtle scutes are not to be expected in the fossil record but they do actually exist. You can see one on the lower left of this slab:

 

 

Randolph Glenn De La Garza, Henrik Madsen, Mats E. Eriksson & Johan Lindgren (2021): A fossil sea turtle (Reptilia, Pan-Cheloniidae) with preserved soft tissues from the Eocene Fur Formation of Denmark, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, DOI: 10.1080/02724634.2021.1938590

 

And here's a second example, also from Denmark, that shoes the marginal scutes beyond the peripherals on the shell edge:

 

Lindgren, J., Kuriyama, T., Madsen, H. et al. Biochemistry and adaptive colouration of an exceptionally preserved juvenile fossil sea turtle. Sci Rep 7, 13324 (2017). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-017-13187-5

Edited October 15 by Carl

[Aidedtomcat97]

Thanks @Carl that's very interesting idea of the turtle scutes, i was under the impression that in rather very exceptional circumstances scutes/scales could be fossilised? But then others told me they couldn't thanks for confirming that they can👍 it seems it would be worth my time having a bit of a more indepth look into fossilised soft tissue in turtles. Many thanks again

[digit]

Again, it is always the exception that proves the rule.  There always seem to be novel cases of highly unusual preservation where something that does not normally preserve defies the odds and sticks around. Unfortunately, people always want to use this as evidence for their unscientific theories to explain what is usually nothing more than a case of pareidolia. Cases of exceptional preservation are great chances to study morphology that is normally lost in the fossil record.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken