Is it possible to get a species from these dolatocrinus calyxs

[zaneharrin]

Hello I recently went to partridge point in the thunder Bay fm for my birthday I ended up finding what I believe is two dolatocrinus calyxs, is there a possible way I could get a species from these calyxs or are they to eroded/broken

[zaneharrin]

Calyx one 

[zaneharrin]

Calyx 2

[crinus]

Both Dolatocrinus and Megistocrinus from Alpena are a mess.  There are too many species with just minor differences.  There has been talk about synonymizing many of the species but there is no one interested in taking on the project. For now, I would just label it Dolatocrinus sp. but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri.

Joe

[zaneharrin]

1 hour ago, crinus said:

Both Dolatocrinus and Megistocrinus from Alpena are a mess.  There are too many species with just minor differences.  There has been talk about synonymizing many of the species but there is no one interested in taking on the project. For now, I would just label it Dolatocrinus sp. but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri.

Joe

So you think both are romingeri ?

[trilobites_are_awesome]

On 12/1/2024 at 12:06 PM, zaneharrin said:

So you think both are romingeri ?

He said that "but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri" meaning that they may or may not be romingeri but for now you can put it on a label.

[zaneharrin]

5 hours ago, trilobites_are_awesome said:

He said that "but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri" meaning that they may or may not be romingeri but for now you can put it on a label.

So does that mean it's a higher chance to be romingeri then the others or is there another reason 

[Fossildude19]

1 hour ago, zaneharrin said:

So does that mean it's a higher chance to be romingeri then the others or is there another reason 

 

If you read what Crinus posted, ... he said to label them as: 

"Dolatocrinus sp. , but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri."

 

He is basically saying the different species are in need of review, (and no one is interested in working on that at the moment)

and it remains scientifically uncertain as to what is actually what, in regards to the species.
But, they have been called D. romingeri for a long time, so, it would be technically OK to label them as such.

But doubts abound. 

 

I would stick with labeling them Dolatocrinus sp. 

[zaneharrin]

28 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

If you read what Crinus posted, ... he said to label them as: 

"Dolatocrinus sp. , but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri."

 

He is basically saying the different species are in need of review, (and no one is interested in working on that at the moment)

and it remains scientifically uncertain as to what is actually what, in regards to the species.
But, they have been called D. romingeri for a long time, so, it would be technically OK to label them as such.

But doubts abound. 

 

I would stick with labeling them Dolatocrinus sp. 

I like to have a species and thanks for telling me as I didn't know that dolatocrinus was called romingeri

[trilobites_are_awesome]

47 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

If you read what Crinus posted, ... he said to label them as: 

"Dolatocrinus sp. , but if you really feel that you need a species then go with romingeri."

 

He is basically saying the different species are in need of review, (and no one is interested in working on that at the moment)

and it remains scientifically uncertain as to what is actually what, in regards to the species.
But, they have been called D. romingeri for a long time, so, it would be technically OK to label them as such.

But doubts abound. 

 

I would stick with labeling them Dolatocrinus sp. 

Thank you!

Once again the same thing I said!

[zaneharrin]

13 minutes ago, trilobites_are_awesome said:

Thank you!

Once again the same thing I said!

Thanks ! , I will but it as romingeri as I don't like pieces that only have the genus

[Mochaccino]

I understand your sentiment but it is perfectly valid to have something labeled like Dolatocrinus sp. if the species assignment is uncertain or in need of revision, especially on specimens like yours that are still obscured with matrix. Even experts and paleontologists use this sort of naming where needed. In fact I would argue that can be the best good faith identification in some cases if you value accuracy.

 

For instance, from what I can make out of the first specimen I personally think it could also be Dolatocrinus barrisi considering the lobed tegmen. But I'm not sure if that ought to be considered a different species from Dolatocrinus romingeri, because of the issues crinus mentioned. See the problem?

 

In any case, if you really want a species name and you have some rationale towards a certain one, you could also very well say something like Dolatocrinus cf. D. romingeri or Dolatocrinus cf. romingeri, which essentially both mean "I think it is probably Dolatocrinus romingeri, but not 100% sure".

Edited December 3, 2024 by Mochaccino

[zaneharrin]

1 hour ago, Mochaccino said:

I understand your sentiment but it is perfectly valid to have something labeled like Dolatocrinus sp. if the species assignment is uncertain or in need of revision, especially on specimens like yours that are still obscured with matrix. Even experts and paleontologists use this sort of naming where needed. In fact I would argue that can be the best good faith identification in some cases if you value accuracy.

 

For instance, from what I can make out of the first specimen I personally think it could also be Dolatocrinus barrisi considering the lobed tegmen. But I'm not sure if that ought to be considered a different species from Dolatocrinus romingeri, because of the issues crinus mentioned. See the problem?

 

In any case, if you really want a species name and you have some rationale towards a certain one, you could also very well say something like Dolatocrinus cf. D. romingeri or Dolatocrinus cf. romingeri, which essentially both mean "I think it is probably Dolatocrinus romingeri, but not 100% sure".

Thanks so much mocha , I've never found any calyxs and didn't even know they existed till 8 months ago im probably gonna thermal label them dolatocrinus romingeri is there anyway I can clean them up so people could make it out better?

[trilobites_are_awesome]

11 hours ago, zaneharrin said:

Thanks so much mocha , I've never found any calyxs and didn't even know they existed till 8 months ago im probably gonna thermal label them dolatocrinus romingeri is there anyway I can clean them up so people could make it out better?

No there isn't a really way for you to clean them up leave it to the paleontologists.

I admire your readiness to help!

Edited December 3, 2024 by trilobites_are_awesome

[Sagebrush Steve]

13 hours ago, zaneharrin said:

Thanks ! , I will but it as romingeri as I don't like pieces that only have the genus

That is not a scientific approach. If you don’t know the species you should not just make it up because you “don’t like pieces that only have the genus.” In this case you may be okay with that label because the taxon is a mess.  But I would encourage you to reconsider that approach in general.

[zaneharrin]

59 minutes ago, Sagebrush Steve said:

That is not a scientific approach. If you don’t know the species you should not just make it up because you “don’t like pieces that only have the genus.” In this case you may be okay with that label because the taxon is a mess.  But I would encourage you to reconsider that approach in general.

I'm just gonna label it romingeri and I will change it if needed once the taxon gets revised

[zaneharrin]

1 hour ago, trilobites_are_awesome said:

No there isn't a really way for you to clean them up leave it to the paleontologists.

I admire your readiness to help!

Thanks for the help always 😁