Feather, Leaf, Or...?

[Cpmiller]

I found this fossil today while hiking through a recently flooded creek bed. I am in far north eastern Ohio near the PA boarder. There are about 8-9 of what look sort of like feathers or leaves all over the flat rock which is about 1 foot wide and 1 foot tall. The individual fossils vary from about an inch to about 5 inches in length.

Note also at the bottom left of the primary fossil in the first photo there is another element which looks to me like a piece of wood, reed, or plant material. I am also curious what this may be.

I am also wondering about what I should do to prepare and preserve the fossil. Any help or direction to specific sections of the forum would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Chris

[Fossildude19]

Looks like some carboniferous aged seed ferns of the genus Alethopteris. Not sure what species.

The reed would be a section of calamites stem.

Cleaning with a toothbrush and some warm soapy water is all I would do to prep it, unless it is very crumbly.

Regards,

Edited September 2, 2014 by Fossildude19

[Cpmiller]

Tim,

Thanks for the speedy reply. I saw those in a fossil book when we got back to the house. The pics in the book have broader leaves than mine, which has only thin lines from stem to edge and they are more numerous and tightly spaces as well. Do some of the Alethopteris have such an appearance?

Thanks,

Chris

[Wrangellian]

To me it's a dead ringer for Plumalina plumaria which was not a plant but a marine colonial organism... I can't be sure due to lack of knowledge of your site and the finer points of plants like Alethopteris etc. but you're in the right general part of the world for both. Does anyone know if plant material is ever found with Plumalina?

[Ludwigia]

I wouldn't say that it's a dead ringer for Plumalina, but it is a very good possibity. If Chris would be able to tell us if the stone is of Devonian or Carboniferous origin that would be a help, since the Hydrozoa ranges from Silur to Devon and the Fern is Carboniferous. Devonian layers are to be found on the Pennsylvanian border in the northeast of the state(Ashtabula & most of Trumbull counties) while the Carbon lies more to the south( Columbiana, Jefferson & most of Mahoning).

Edited September 2, 2014 by Ludwigia

[Fossildude19]

I was seeing some strong central ribbing on the second pic along with the appearance of alternating pinnules looked to me to be a match for Alethopteris.

That and the added Calamites looking plants sent me a plant vibe on it.

It doesn't quite look like Plumalina to me, but, ... I could be wrong - Wouldn't be the first time.

More precise info on where it was found along with some detailed close ups might help settle this.

Regards,

[Taogan]

I see more of the fern in this than a sea pen, but I don't have enough information on North American ferns to give a species name.

[Cpmiller]

Wrangellian and Ludwigia,

Excellent info! The site is about a mile from the PA boarder in northern Trumbull County. Does this confirm Devonian and subsequently Plumalina Plumaria?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge! This is brand new to me and I'm catching a glimpse of how addicting it could be. And no offense to all, but your speedy and knowledgable answers could make it just that much more addicting.

Cheers,

Chris

[Fossildude19]

Well, according to this Geologic map of Ohio, there is some Devonian, and some Pennsylvanian, but predominantly Mississippian strata, exposed in Trumbull County.

Not sure Plumalina was around during the Mississippian?

If not, that would point towards plant, in my opinion.

Regards,

Edited September 2, 2014 by Fossildude19

[paleoflor]

Indeed, like Tim already said, probably Alethopteris, given the presence of a midvein combined with decurrent (confluent) pinnule bases. You will likely not be able to assign this specimen to any particular species, since the veins (other than the midvein) are poorly/not preserved (while this is a specific character for several species).

[Ludwigia]

The latest confirmed appearance of Plumalina was in the Devon. According to the map, there are no Devonian exposures near the border, which leaves us with either Mississipian or Pennsylvanian, which in turn points to plants...oh hi Paleoflor! Good to have your input here.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Ludwigia

[Cpmiller]

I should mention that after reviewing the posted maps I see that I was about 5 miles from the mapped edge of Devonian exposure. I suppose it may be relevant that the creek bed was in a gorge about 40 feet deep. The creek is bounded by large walls of exposed sedimentary rock layers. Portions of the bed are enormous sheets of flat rock with square cracks running through most of it. I found the fossils between two waterfalls located about 100 yards apart. In the same are I found mostly marine shell fossils and many that looked like sticks and blobs. See pics. I am also posting better pics of the fossil. With all of the data you all have given I would think this is a Devonian layer and thus most likely Plumalina Plumaria. From the pictures of both Plumalina Plumaria and Alethopteris I must say that no Alethopteris photos have nearly as many branches. The Plumaria photos however show nearly identical branch spacing and are overall dead on...unless I am missing something.

[Ludwigia]

I should mention that after reviewing the posted maps I see that I was about 5 miles from the mapped edge of Devonian exposure. I suppose it may be relevant that the creek bed was in a gorge about 40 feet deep. The creek is bounded by large walls of exposed sedimentary rock layers. Portions of the bed are enormous sheets of flat rock with square cracks running through most of it. I found the fossils between two waterfalls located about 100 yards apart. In the same are I found mostly marine shell fossils and many that looked like sticks and blobs. See pics. I am also posting better pics of the fossil. With all of the data you all have given I would think this is a Devonian layer and thus most likely Plumalina Plumaria. From the pictures of both Plumalina Plumaria and Alethopteris I must say that no Alethopteris photos have nearly as many branches. The Plumaria photos however show nearly identical branch spacing and are overall dead on...unless I am missing something.

I must say, I'm getting a little confused now. There was only one posted map and it does not show by far any Devonian exposures within 6 miles ( "The site is about a mile from the PA boarder..") of the Pa. border. I'm having to go by this since I'm not at all familiar with the area. The new photos and information however do give support to what you are saying. I would suggest that you now take your finds to the nearest museum or paleontological institute. They could certainly confirm the one or the other id with the things at hand, which would be much more reliable than long distance photograph diagnostic. At least you know now which directions to chase up.

[paleoflor]

I should mention that after reviewing the posted maps I see that I was about 5 miles from the mapped edge of Devonian exposure. I suppose it may be relevant that the creek bed was in a gorge about 40 feet deep. The creek is bounded by large walls of exposed sedimentary rock layers. Portions of the bed are enormous sheets of flat rock with square cracks running through most of it. I found the fossils between two waterfalls located about 100 yards apart. In the same are I found mostly marine shell fossils and many that looked like sticks and blobs. See pics. I am also posting better pics of the fossil. With all of the data you all have given I would think this is a Devonian layer and thus most likely Plumalina Plumaria. From the pictures of both Plumalina Plumaria and Alethopteris I must say that no Alethopteris photos have nearly as many branches. The Plumaria photos however show nearly identical branch spacing and are overall dead on...unless I am missing something.

If it were Alethopteris, every three lines (one midvein, two lateral margins) would constitute a pinnule, lowering the observed density somewhat. However, if you did not find this specimen in non-marine Carboniferous strata, then I need to tone down my argumentation. Taking a second look at the photographs, the "confluent pinnule bases" may be mineral staining (combined with my plant-oriented eye), rendering this a dodgy observation (like Ludwigia said, from a photograph). In non-marine Carboniferous strata, one could, by a process of elimination, still consider Alethopteris as one of the more probable IDs. However, If your circumstantial evidence points toward Devonian strata, then it becomes rather unlikely (this actually would explain why the lateral veins are so poorly/not preserved - they were never there, ha ha!).

[Cpmiller]

Ludwigia,

Take another look at the posted map. Nearly all of Ashtabula has Devonian exposure along the state line. I was in the upper most corner of Trumbull and thus was very close to mapped exposure. My assumption of these types of maps after reviewing several is that they diviate significantly from each other in their detail and are the same only in the basic mapping. To me this indicated that it was very possible for the layer to be Devonian. Your earlier post is what started me reviewing these maps. The link Fossildude19 posted is the one I am referring to when I say "5 miles", it may even be closer. You guys certainly know your stuff, All I knew was: I found a cool fossil, where I was located, what other fossils I found there. With all of your shared knowledge I feel pretty confident in Plumalina. Thanks to all of you for the incredible help. I'll still find a museum to validate and then let you all know.

High Five,

Chris

[Shamalama]

IMHO, that is Plumalina which is known from Upper Devonian aged rocks in NY. Very possible that is what you were hunting in an area that transitions from Devonian to Mississippian.

Dave

[Fossildude19]

A few thoughts.

Were these fossils found loose, in the recently flooded streambed, or were they removed from a specific layer?

If these were found loose, the provenance is skewed, and therefore, cannot be pinned down to a distinct time period. IF all were removed from a specific layer, then the argument for Devonian age is more stable.

It could still very well be Plumalina, but that still doesn't explain the Calamites - looking stem fossil - I have seen other Devonian plant matter, and it is usually carbonized. I see distinct ribbing on the stem like piece that I have not seen before in Devonian plant remains. If not carbonized, they are usually more lycopod looking, like lepidodendron.

Still, you have brought us a very interesting fossil conundrum, and I hope you do get someone to look at it - I would really like to know what the outcome is, as I can learn from great posts like these.

Thanks for posting this.

Regards,

[tmaier]

In image #1 of post #12, I see what looks like brachiopods.

Specimens taken straight out of the strata are called "in context". Specimens found loose are called "floats". You have to be careful of accidentally assigning a float to the strata you found it near.

Looks like Plumalina plumaria to me. The biggest mystery to me is what the item that looks like calamites stem might be, if it really was marine.

[piranha]

Although there is a vague similarity to Plumalina, the literature doesn't mention any occurrences in Ohio, only New York and Missouri specimens are described. The woody specimen with a Calamites-like appearance suggests plant is more likely than the first recorded Plumalina in Ohio. Attached for additional comparison are some figures of Plumalina.
 

Sass, D.B., & Rock B.N. (1975)
The genus Plumalina Hall, 1858 (Coelenterata) - re-examined.
Bulletins of American Paleontology, 67:407-422
 

 

Muscente, A.D., & Allmon, W.D. (2013)
Revision of the Hydroid Plumalina Hall, 1858 in the Silurian and Devonian of New York.
Journal of Paleontology, 87(4):710-725

 

 

 

[Auspex]

This just doesn't look like something normally found in a marine environment, irrespective of the age of the rocks:

[tmaier]

This just doesn't look like something normally found in a marine environment, irrespective of the age of the rocks:

~.JPG

Yes, I believe that is what is known as "the sticking point".

Get it? It is what has us stuck, but it is also a stick, or appears to be. It's a double entendre. OK, it's a lot funnier when I wave my arms like I have a stick and do poking motions with it. Loses humor in this presentation format...

Is it a stick or is there anything that is marine that would give the appearance of a stick? I can't think of anything at the moment.

[Brewcuse]

Living completely in the Devonian as I do, and being a complete non-expert as I am, this doesn't feel like anything I've ever seen in the wild, but does look more to me like land plants I see from Pennsylvania.

[Wrangellian]

Living completely in the Devonian as I do, and being a complete non-expert as I am, this doesn't feel like anything I've ever seen in the wild, but does look more to me like land plants I see from Pennsylvania.

Do you have any examples to show us?

[Auspex]

The preservation isn't all that sharp, but a piece of Cordaites leaf comes to mind.

[Wrangellian]

I'd say it's anything but a vague resemblance to Plumalina (less vague than to Alethopteris I'd say, and if anything is vague it's that chunk of plant!)

It is a little waterworn/stained, I will grant that, but if we're in or downstream from any Devonian strata, between NY and MO, then I would give it a good chance.

You yourself confirmed for me the first occurrence of a genus outside of its original jurisdiction of discovery, Scott - namely my Hormathospongia!

Anyway it will be interesting what the museum people have to say, and if there are any more specimens to be found it will help too.

Fore further comparison (if my pics aren't too crappy), here is a Plumalina that 'fossilcrazy' John gave me:

Edited September 4, 2014 by Wrangellian