Estate Sale "fossil"

[bettywood1]

Hope this isn't off the subject, enclosed is a picture of an item I picked up at an estate sale, don't know much about it, doesn't look like a casting, seems to be on slate, maybe some can help me, with an ID, anyone is welcome to use the picture. thanks in advance

[JohnJ]

Your post was moved to its own topic.

[Auspex]

This looks like an 'artistic rendering', a man made facsimile of a Keichousaurus or something like it.

LINK

[snolly50]

I'm curious about the circular and ovate spots scattered about the piece. They are obvious when the photo is enlarged for viewing.

[ZiggieCie]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum.

[Dave pom Allen]

Fake

[Diceros]

To me, the neck is too short, and the tail too long for the Chinese Keichousaurus. I was thinking more of the small Permian reptile Mesosaurus braziliensis ( https://www.google.com/search?q=Mesosaurus%2C+Permian&tbm=isch&biw=1024&bih=615&oq=keichousaurus&gs_l=img.12...0.0.0.120563.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac..34.img..0.0.0.NCXN1INhywY ), which also had enlarged, pachyostotic ribs. Mesosaurus is found in Permian marine beds, in the southern continents (Brazil, India, Africa, etc.). It was considered by Permian reptile guy A. S. Romer to be one of the first good bits of evidence, back in the 60's (where I come from), of the southern supercontinent Gondwana (the Permian seed fern Glossopteris turned out to be more convincing, but it's still cool.

I believe the small white dots on the skeleton (seen in the enlargement) are air bubbles formed when the cast was poured into the mold (air bubbles tend to get trapped in small pockets of the mold, and are hard to shake free - use thin plaster, and knock the filled mold on the table a few times after it's poured). I don't believe it's an "artistic rendering" - they'd have reconstructed the skull if that's what they were doing. There are lots of good skeletons of Mesosaurus around, particularly from Brazil. I'd say this is a decent cast, though I hope you didn't pay too much for it at the estate sale.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Diceros

[oilshale]

These fakes are sold in China in their thousands. Sort of chimaera between Keichousaurus and Mesosaurus. but no real fossil.

Here is an almost identical one (bought in Nepal!) which showed up in TFF somewhat earlier in 2011:

Here is the original picture:

and that's the thread:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/25481-nepal-fossils-vertebrata/

Thomas

Edited June 9, 2015 by oilshale

[Diceros]

Thomas - Either I'm too naive, or you're too cynical, but I think they're casts of different Permian marine reptile skeleton specimens, both now Mesosaurus tenuidens Gervais, 1866 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesosaurus ). The Nepali cast could even have been from the Permian of India or Nepal (note the map of Gondwana in the Wikipedia article). Of course, you could say the sculptor was just using artistic liscense, but the ends of the two tails are different, and the skull of the Nepali cast is a bit more complete (overall, Bettywood1, I'd say yours is the better cast, despite the bubbles in yours).

In case anyone was wondering, the Chinese Triassic Keichousaurus and the Brazilian Permian Mesosaurus aren't closely related. Keichousaurus is a close relative of the long-necked Triassic nothosaurs, themselves related to the Cretaceous marine plesiosaurs; I'm not exactly sure what Mesosaurus is (it's a member of the Clade Parareptilia, and the Order Mesosauria - but I've no idea where that places it), but it's a far more primitive reptile (and may be the first marine reptile).

[Carl]

I'm firmly in the camp IDing this as a fake. Has absolutely the right smell.

[JohnJ]

Thomas - Either I'm too naive, or you're too cynical, but I think they're casts of different Permian marine reptile skeleton specimens, both now Mesosaurus tenuidens Gervais, 1866 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesosaurus ). The Nepali cast could even have been from the Permian of India or Nepal (note the map of Gondwana in the Wikipedia article). Of course, you could say the sculptor was just using artistic liscense, but the ends of the two tails are different, and the skull of the Nepali cast is a bit more complete (overall, Bettywood1, I'd say yours is the better cast, despite the bubbles in yours).

In case anyone was wondering, the Chinese Triassic Keichousaurus and the Brazilian Permian Mesosaurus aren't closely related. Keichousaurus is a close relative of the long-necked Triassic nothosaurs, themselves related to the Cretaceous marine plesiosaurs; I'm not exactly sure what Mesosaurus is (it's a member of the Clade Parareptilia, and the Order Mesosauria - but I've no idea where that places it), but it's a far more primitive reptile (and may be the first marine reptile).

I fall on the "cynical" side of this discussion, too. Diceros, with due respect for your paleo experience (which far exceeds mine), I only see a passing similarity between the "cast" in the first post and the Mesosaurus tenuidens in the Wikipedia link. There are morphological differences. The cast in this topic looks like a cast of a cast compared to the 2011 topic in Thomas' link.

I think it's hard to say what the 'original' fossil really looked like, given all the generations of 'improvements' to enhance it as a 'fossil' commodity.

Mesosaurus tenuidens

bettywood1's cast

Nepal cast

[Diceros]

Try this one: http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-fossil-mesosaur-mesosaurus-brasiliensis-early-permian-period-286-to-60873408.html , also crushed due-dorsally, and with the pachyostotic ribs a bit more spread out.

I have, of course, seen completely manufactured sea turtle and dryosaur skulls and mosasaur jaws (sometimes with actual tooth crowns) from Morocco; and sometimes I've purchased blocks of red sandstone from Morocco, just to prepare them out, to see how the crown was mated to the root. I've also seen Keichousaurus skeletons, and the free-swimming crinoid Saccoma, drawn on slabs of rock. These are in bas-relief, and would require a huge amount of sculpting, when a good prepared skeleton can be purchased at a reasonable price, then duplicated by the hundreds. The latter I have no problem with, assuming they're sold as casts. As the Smithsonian says, that's the "increase and diffusion of knowledge among men."

I freely accept that you guys may have dealt with more manufactured fossils than I have. I just wanted to offer a believer's perspective, naive or not.

[oilshale]

Diceros, call me cynical or not (and I have to admit - I am sort of cynical) but I wouldn't be too surprised if this mini-rex is another masterpiece out of the same artist's workshop:

You can even get a delicate pair of fossil butterflies...

By the way, I don't think this artist used a Mesosaurus as a model - but there are a couple of other stout and short snouted Pachypleurosaurs from the Triassic Yunnan and Guizhou such as Dianopachysaurus dingi which come into question.

Edited June 10, 2015 by oilshale

[Herb]

They are interesting though,

[Diceros]

To be fair, Thomas, the crude mini-rex is an impression made with a flat plastic toy of some sort, then the "bones" painted black. It's not an elaborately-sculpted skeleton of anything.

Don't Pachypleurosaurus and Dianopachysaurus have the same nothosaur neck and tail proportions as Keichousaurus?

I always enjoy reading your well-informed posts, Thomas. Earl

[oilshale]

Don't Pachypleurosaurus and Dianopachysaurus have the same nothosaur neck and tail proportions as Keichousaurus?

Earl

Earl, you are right - If I remember well, their neck is only a little bit shorter than that of a Keichousaurus.

This artist might have been inspired by the picture of a Placodus inexpectatus from Guanling - the little guy in the middle. (Top is a Paraplacodus broilii from Monte San Giorgio, Switzerland and bottom is a Sinocyamodus xinpuensis, also from Guanling).

http://www.palaeontologyonline.com/articles/2014/fossil-focus-placodonts/ (nice article about Placodonts in Palaeontologyonline)

More about the fossils in this beautiful region:

Exceptional vertebrate biotas from the Triassic of China, and the expansion of marine ecosystems after the Permo-Triassic mass extinction

Another reason might have been: The long neck just didn't fit onto the slab and he had to "match" the fossil.

Thomas

Edited June 10, 2015 by oilshale