Harry Pristis Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I have this chunk of silicified tree branch (Early Pleistocene of Florida) that may show some insect borings or even some pupae. Can I get some opinions? There are two cells (apparently) exposed on the broken face in the middle image. There is a close-up of the marked section in the last image. I am also curious about the many pores scattered over the broken face . . . Are these part of the tree's vascular system? Thanks for the help. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) The pours that You referred to are part of the wood structure. There do appear to be some bug borings in the piece, but I do not see any thing I would call a larva/pupae in them. Nice piece of wood!! Tony Edited November 4, 2015 by ynot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 The pours that You referred to are part of the wood structure. There do appear to be some bug borings in the piece, but I do not see any thing I would call a larva/pupae in them. Nice piece of wood!! Tony One cell with an inflated pupa (maybe) is at the 11 o'clock position. The other deflated thing is represented in the close-up third image. Click on the image to enlarge. Here is the other face of the piece: http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Just an observation. The shape highlighted in the center photo appears to alter ray structures. Wouldn't that indicate that it formed in actively growing tissue a considerable time before the tree died ? I guess it could well be diagenetic though. Edited November 4, 2015 by Rockwood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 Just an observation. The shape highlighted in the center photo appears to alter ray structures. Wouldn't that indicate that it formed in actively growing tissue a considerable time before the tree died ? I guess it could well be diagenetic though. No, I don't think the alteration is diagenetic. I think your observation is correct: Whatever caused the abnormal growth operated while the tree was a living organism. My question is, were parasitic organisms involved in altering the normal growth in the branch? http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 The structures indeed resemble insect borings. However, instead of larvae, perhaps coprolite?... By the way, insect damage aside, that is a nice piece of hardwood! The radially arranged pores are clearly recognizable, even in the rough. You could consider comparing your specimen with entries in the Inside Wood database. A polished section/face would definitely help here, though. Anyway, you might want to compare with some of the Fagaceae, perhaps? 1 Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 Thank you, Paleoflor, for the response. I do think it is a hardwood with a river bottomland origin. Oak is common today. Can you give me an example of an organism that leaves its digestive product in a lump in a wood boring? . . . that is an unfamiliar concept for me. But, of course, I am neither a plant biologist nor an arborculturist. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Termites, for example, as well as several other insects. Coprolite is a lot more common than permineralised larvae, that's why I proposed this may be an alternative. Nothing more, nothing less... Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 We have no other suggestions so far, so let's examine termites as a possibility. Termite droppings are the size of a pinhead. The two objects in question are roughly 3 and 4 mm in length. Termites AFAIK don't attack living wood. The two object are located in burrows made in living wood. I was think more along the lines of a solitary, flying insect with an ovipositor sturdy enough and long enough to lay eggs inside a branch. But, the identification may be something entirely different. I hope we get further speculation. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Could you explain how you determined that these burrows were made in living and not dead wood? Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Harry have you looked a Teredo as a possibility? It is hard to see in the pic but it appears mollusky It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeschWhat Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I LOVE petrified wood with insect traces! Any chance you could get it under a microscope? From the center picture, I would guess the feature at 10 o'clock in the center photo is a silicified burrow. If you could get it under a microscope you would probably see the crystal structure. The resolution of the closeup of the other structure isn't clear enough to tell what it is. It could be backfill/frass from an insect, algae, fungi, or maybe an egg/pupa casing as you suggest. If it is coprolite, it would have to be a cluster of them and would be easily distinguishable under a scope. Lori www.areallycrappystory.com/fossils www.facebook.com/fossilpoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 There are termites that live in living wood, (dampwood termites?), I think they are tropical (Two other kinds, dry wood-live in dead wood, and subterranean-live underground and travel to wood). If I saw those little holes on any of my woodworking boards,I would think powder post beetles. Don't know about the larger one........if it was a larvae, you should see track-ways (borings) around it, they don't just stay put once hatched, could be it is a larvae, but fracture doesn't show the trackways (borings), pretty thin Occam's razor at that point though. What ever it is, that piece of wood had some issues. Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 As I look at it further......little holes appear too orderly arranged to be insect damage in my opinion. Also, the larger parts in question appear to be fairly deep in the wood, aren't most insect larvae clustered around the cambium layer? Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 [...] It could be backfill/frass from an insect, algae, fungi, or maybe an egg/pupa casing as you suggest. If it is coprolite, it would have to be a cluster of them and would be easily distinguishable under a scope. Frass is indeed a better term, perhaps. Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Could you explain how you determined that these burrows were made in living and not dead wood? This is the right question. As I thought about it overnight, it occurred to me that the excavations and altered architecture seen on the broken face could have been done as easily in a dead branch as a living one. In the living wood case, the tree tissue would have grown around the burrow. In the dead wood case, the boring insect would have created the alterations. So, the living wood premise is unreliable. Here, from the same underwater site, is an example of dead wood (I think) insect borings. They look similar to underground termite excavations in wood, don't they: Edited November 5, 2015 by Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 . In the living wood case, the tree tissue would have grown around the burrow. . . twigs_16_B.JPG I am not sure this is the case, the wood itself doesn't grow as I remember, growth only occurs around the cambium layer, which is why a wound in a tree never heals. Am I missing something in my understanding? Brent Ashcraft 1 ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 twigs_16_C.JPG I am not sure this is the case, the wood itself doesn't grow as I remember, growth only occurs around the cambium layer, which is why a wound in a tree never heals. Am I missing something in my understanding? Brent Ashcraft I think the feature marked in the above image could have originated when that was living cambium. Boring insects also introduce fungi and viruses to wood, which can leave their own evidence of pathology. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFOOLEY Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I know this is terribly unhelpful, but would an insect boring be considered a pathology? "I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?" ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcraft Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I know this is terribly unhelpful, but would an insect boring be considered a pathology? To me, it would be. It would logically compare to a bullet wound in a human. Not an expert though, Brent Ashcraft ashcraft, brent allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 Good observations, all. I am not sure this is the case, the wood itself doesn't grow as I remember, growth only occurs around the cambium layer, which is why a wound in a tree never heals. Am I missing something in my understanding? Brent Ashcraft Wounds to the cambium do heal, if not invaded by opportunistic pathogens. There may be a scar, but the raw edges of the wound do heal. As far as growing around a burrow goes, trees grow around much more intrusive things (barbed wire, for example). I'm happy to find some interest in the challenge. Here are a couple of further images of both specimens I've presented. They show, I think, quite different sorts of invasions by (probably) insects. Hope these add something to the thread. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleoflor Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 [...] Wounds to the cambium do heal, if not invaded by opportunistic pathogens. There may be a scar, but the raw edges of the wound do heal. As far as growing around a burrow goes, trees grow around much more intrusive things (barbed wire, for example). [...] Okay, but why would a tree grow around a hollow structure, and not just through it? I still don't get that. In the case of barbed wire, there is actually something offering resistance. Moreover, a burrow needs to be made in something. Doesn't this imply that the secondary xylem in which the burrow is now visible had already formed at the time the burrow was made? If we were to accept such a timing, the cambium would already be some distance away. Searching for green in the dark grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Okay, but why would a tree grow around a hollow structure, and not just through it? I still don't get that. In the case of barbed wire, there is actually something offering resistance. Moreover, a burrow needs to be made in something. Doesn't this imply that the secondary xylem in which the burrow is now visible had already formed at the time the burrow was made? If we were to accept such a timing, the cambium would already be some distance away. Keep in mind, paleoflor, that we are seeing only the cross-section (or less) of the putative chambers. We cannot say what sort of access to the surface the chambers may have had. Moreover, the things we see remaining in the chambers may be bits of pupal case with the insect long-gone before the chamber could be sealed by the cambium. In other words, the burrows may have been made while the branch was perhaps half the diameter it is now. Edited November 5, 2015 by Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Hi Harry, neat thread and examples. Not sure what you have but maybe a scope and other sections on those items is the only way to figure what's going on. I'm definitely intrigued. I wish you had posted this about 2 months ago as I would have some really good comparative recent photos for you from the termite angle...I have a customer with a 8' tall Dracaena marginata that is outside in a large container. Back then I noticed some of the upper stems and the main trunk starting to yellow and decline. I investigated further and I noticed a dead area on the backside was infested with large termites.They were probably the dampwood kind as I've since learned. The most interesting thing to me was how big they were and at the time was how the plant was trying to continue to grow around the injuries and seal that area off. Termites were at least 2-2.5 cm long. I just happened to be at this account today and saw another stem whose interior was hollowed out and parts of it were also rotting but a burrow and infill again was visible. I'll have to take some pictures next time of whats left as there is still some of the original damage visible and the plants reaction to it and see how they compare to yours. Great specimen you have there! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Well I guess I have to assume the role of the antagonist and ask why this could not be teredo? I have samples with 1mm borings and some with 7mm borings. The pic of the objects in question are blurry. Harry I ask you what you would ask. What is your rationale for a terrestrial origin of these borings? Living trees can fall into the water and be inundated with marine life while continuing to grow. Very interesting discussion thanks for starting it. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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