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This weeks round of red flags Recent listings offers a number of very long Spinosaur teeth at very low prices. Most of these have fake roots and more. Avoid and post here before you buy. A member just got taken last week so please be careful. Large rooted teeth are expensive. A finger bone is offered described from a Spinosaurus. I think its a carpal but we have no scientific evidence that this morphology is from a Spinosaur. Its a very nice indeterminate Theropod carpal. This bone is listed coming from a Carcharodontosaurus. We have no idea who is the owner of this bone, no associated foot material has been published for any large Kem Kem Theropod. Best identified as indeterminate Theropod. Lots of fake Dinosaur eggs continue to be listed. Please post interest before you buy. A pair of Aublysodon Premaxillary teeth offered for sale. Reminder this is no longer considered a valid species, they are best identified as Tyrannosaurid indet. Most likely Nanotyrannus.
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A very large Moroccan centrum is being offered for sale. Seller identifies it as a Carcharodontosaurus. In my opinion this looks more like a Sauropod with that very large pleurocoel in the lateral view. Not sure what is going on with that purplish looking material if its been added. Spinosaurus tail, caudal vertebra being offered for sale no mention of any repairs. The centrum does look like its from a Spinosaurid but the processes look composited. You can see the typical Moroccan matrix mix between those processss and centrum. Seller is advertising this as a Carcharodontosaurus toe bone. Identifying isolated toe bones to a species in the Kem Kem is very difficult not much is published that describes them. Its a nice bone buy it as an indeterminate Theropod. Lots of eggs are showing up for sale. Most are fake....this is just a reminder of that, please post interests here before you buy. I still see some dealers offering Rugops teeth for sale from the Kem Kem. Just a reminder that this species is only described from the Echkar Fm of Niger. Most of the teeth offered are Abelisaurid but are indeterminate from the Kem Kem until something is published. For fun saw this 4 figure listing, seller describes it as a petrified baby dinosaur skull with teeth, skin and brain matter coming out of the side of its mouth looks like an alien head to me.
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Rebbachisaurus Tail Vert Correct ID
TyBoy posted a topic in Is It Real? How to Recognize Fossil Fabrications
A cool tail vertebra is being sold as the Diplodocoid Rebbachisaurus is the ID correct? Kem Kem Beds. Any resto or repair evident. Thank you
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Carcharodontosaurus Foot Claw - Real?
TyBoy posted a topic in Is It Real? How to Recognize Fossil Fabrications
A 3" Carcharodontosaurus Foot Claw is being offered for sale from the Kem Kem of Morocco by a pretty respected dealer. It looks pretty nice but is it identified correctly and repairs or restoration visible? Thank you.
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I have a few teeth here that i could you some help identifying! I'm thinking between a Crocodile or Raptor for the first tooth posted (includes photo of each side). The second photo contains multiple teeth that look to be from the same organism, however i have no clue as to what it could be. All of these teeth are from the Kem Kem Beds of Taouz, Morocco. The single (Crocodile/Raptor?) tooth is .53" (14 mm) long by .31" (8 mm) wide by .2" (5 mm) thick.
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Kem Kem Dinosaur Offerings
Troodon posted a topic in Is It Real? How to Recognize Fossil Fabrications
These bones from the Kem Kem Beds of Morocco are being offered for sale as Spinosaurus Phalanx Toe Bones. They appear to be carpals, hand bones, and most likely from one of the Spinosaurid's in that fauna. Please note that I've yet to find any technical paper that describes any Spinosaurid hand bones The seller indicates only some glued and fill fractures however the excessive matrix on both these carpals might indicate otherwise. The distal end of the carpal on the right appears to have lots of "fill".thumb.jpg.2a3d267ea47edac2318d335ab2d47362.jpg)
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I've had a number of questions raised via PMs and posts on Dinosaur claws from the Kem Kem Beds so here is a topic on that subject. We know very little about their morphology and that is not unexpected because this region continues to mystify everyone and new discoveries are constantly changing our understanding of these dinosaurs. Spinosaurid foot claws are the best understood but since we really do not know how many species exist, currently two, its difficult to assign the morphology shown below to any specific one. Best described as Spinosaurid indet. Note the dimple on the ventral surface The claw shown below is generally accepted as a Spinosaurid hand claw but like the foot claw cannot assign it to a specific species. Not aware of any publication showing this morphology in the Kem Kem but very similar to claws in other regions. Best described as Spinossurid indet. Abelsaurid foot claws..multiple species may exists do there may be some variation to this design Best described as Abelsaurid indet. Foot Claw of a Carcharodontosaurid. No Kem Kem claws have been described so like Spinosaurids hand claws we look at other regikns to compare agsinst. Tyrannotitan is a Carcharodontosaurid from Argentina Again there are multiple species described so best described as Carcharodontosaurid indet. Possible Reference paper http://www.academia.edu/1080746/Theropod_pedal_unguals_from_the_Late_Cretaceous_Cenomanian_of_Morocco_Africa
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Red Flag on Kem Kem Material
Troodon posted a topic in Is It Real? How to Recognize Fossil Fabrications
Offered these two toe bones from a Spinosaurus. Claw appears to be from a Spinosaurid but identifying the phalanx to one is very problematic. Not a lot of comparative material out there. Regardless that phalanx location does not have a claw next to it.. Offered these two Spinosaurus toe finger bones Both belong to a Spinosaurid but one is a foot claw the other is a hand carpal Offered these three Spinosaurus toe finger bones. Dont believe the claw belongs to a Spinosaurus and like before identifying the two phalanx to a species is very difficult Offered are a Spinosaurus hand bone and claw Very cool pair great addition to any collection. The bone looks like a phalanx not a hand bone indeterminate species but the claw is not like anything I've seen before. No idea whats its from but very nice. Offered are these two unidentified theropod bones and claw. What you have here is an Abelsaurid claw and two unknown bones one of which may not be dinosaurian. What you are buying here is that claw its very nice. There are other other digits, claws offered. If you are interested please post them here and we will give them a look before you buy
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Red Flag on Kem Kem Vertebrae
Troodon posted a topic in Is It Real? How to Recognize Fossil Fabrications
A number of vertebrae are up for sale from the Kem Kem beds. I would recommend if you have interest in any, please post them here for comment like some of you already have. I've commented on a few. Spinosaurs dorsal vertebra being offered for sale. Please exercise caution on this specimen. It has tons of fill and the centrum shape looks off. Hard to determine if this is a composite or from the same vertebra. Dorsal vertebra should look like this in lateral view. A Carcharodontosaurus centrum being offered for sale. Not sure one can identify this to any specific Dinosaur or Reptile. A Spinosaur caudal vertebra being offered for sale. Not sure what this is, not Spinosaurus. The centrum might be one but not the spines, look like crock. Spines may be composited Two Caudal vertebrae from a Sauropod are being offered. Unfortunately the one on the left is Crocodilian and the one on the right might also be one or theropod, needs cleaning up. Another similar group of Verts is being offered same comments. Neural spines like the one below typically are Croc. Okay not a vert but not dinosaurian as offered. Reptlian_20180513090744205.thumb.jpg.3cfba01b144e95d9b4a897b0548aaa39.jpg)
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Location: Morocco Kem Kem Beds To often Crocodile jaws are composited with Spinosaurid teeth and sold as Spinosaurus jaws. So the purpose of this topic is to show the diagnostic features of Spinosaurid jaws First its extremely rare that any jaw from this region contains functional teeth. Germ/unerupted teeth are more common but those are typically well into the tooth cavity and not protuding above the jaw line. So its highly probable that those you see sold with teeth are composited. We currently do not know if there is a variation between the jaws of the different Spinosaurids described or yet to be discovered in this region so there could be some difference between them but the general characteristics should be similar. Here is a composite skull in private hands and paleontologist Cristophe Hendrickx drawing of that skull Dentary: This is Stromers original plate. 1) You can see the variation in the lateral (side) view of jaw. A very wide anterior end and more V shaped toward the hinge. So jaw sections that you see sold which are straight across are probably crocodile. 2) The teeth are also not positioned in a straight line, and not always next to one another. 3) The most telling feature is the lip on the labial side. It should be present across the entire length of the jaw 4) Broken dentary jaw sections being sold should wide not narrow like croc's Closeup of Lip Close up of germ/unerupted teeth Premaxillary/Maxillary Much more robust than dentary however the lip feature is still present but on the lingual side. Very wide in lateral view. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0144695 dal Sasso, C.; Maganuco, S.; Buffetaut, E.; Mendez, M.A. (2005). New information on the skull of the enigmatic theropod Spinosaurus with remarks on its sizes and affinities. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology. 25 (4): 888–896. doi:10.1671/0272-4634(2005)025[0888:NIOTSO]2.0.CO;2 Maxilla for sale with composite teeth
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Looks like the Kem Kem is giving up a few new secrets. Xericeps curvirostris is the latest newly described Pterosaur from the region. Unfortunately it's a paywalled paper. The papers illustrations can be see in a thumbnail by hitting the 3 green lines on the upper left of the link http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195667117304044 Author :David M Martill, David M Unwin, Nizar Ibrahim, Nick Longrich Publication date 2017/9/14 Journal Cretaceous Research Publisher Academic Press Description Abstract A new genus and species, Xericeps curvirostris gen. et sp. nov., is erected for a highly distinctive pterosaur mandible from the mid-Cretaceous (? Albian to lower Cenomanian) Kem Kem beds of south east Morocco. The new taxon is referred to Azhdarchoidea based on the absence of teeth, slenderness of its mandible with sulcate occlusal surface, presence on the posterior section of the mandibular symphysis of short paired ridges bounding a central groove, and the presence of elongate foramina on its ... Scholar articles A new edentulous pterosaur from the Cretaceous Kem Kem beds of south eastern Morocco DM Martill, DM Unwin, N Ibrahim, N Longrich - Cretaceous Research, 2017 @LordTrilobite @Seguidora-de-Isis
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Is it possible to ID this vertebra? Thanks ...
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These teeth were all bought together, I'm guessing they are labeled more or less correctly, but I want y'all to varify. First was labeled pterosaur, so I'm guessing sirroccopteryx? The next was labeled carcharodontosaurus, which I'm guessing is correct. Lastly a tooth labeled dromeosaur, and from what I can gather, these teeth are from an indeterminate taxon? I can take more pictures, just tell me the angle.
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Until joining this forum, I thought that the kem kem beds were clear cut and simple in terms of teeth, you have crocs, raptors, carcharodantosaurs, and spinosaurs. I was of course, incrediblely wrong. I have acquired a few teeth from various suppliers, and they are of the kem kem beds. I got these way before I joined the forum and I would like to us your collective skills to get the best IDs possible. This will probably be the first of two posts. first up is a small tooth, labeled deltadromeus agilis, a species of which no skeletal elements are known. after that are two teeth in a lot of bones apparently from a sulphur mine.
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From the album: WhodamanHD's Fossil collection.
Four fragments that came with two other labeled theropod too the fragments. These are highly worn and poor in quality which makes me believe that it could be any bone from any thing. Bought online. -
From the album: WhodamanHD's Fossil collection.
This is a tooth section from morroco, bought online with some other tooth fragments. -
From the album: WhodamanHD's Fossil collection.
Spinosaurid tooth purchased from store. Labeled spinosaurus sp. from morroco. -
From the album: WhodamanHD's Fossil collection.
Pterosaur tooth bough to online. From morroco, and I assume siroccopteryx. -
Analyzing a Kem Kem Vertebra
Troodon posted a topic in Is It Real? How to Recognize Fossil Fabrications
I was browsing the Internet and saw this vertebra for sale from my favorite locality the Kem Kem Beds. It's a good example of how the Moroccan's composite a dinosaur vertebra so I decided to post it. Here is the specimen and from a distance it looks acceptable. The centrum looks very nice and possibly a nice addition to a collection. Unfortunately after closer inspection everything else is questionable and red flags are raised. . Matrix fills the gap between the centrum and processes on both sides. Best conclusion is that all of the processes have been composited to the centrum. Is it possible that the processes belong to the centrum? Sure that's possible but another red flag is this bone. It looks nothing like an articulating process should look like and appears to be a peice bone that has been added to appear like one. Or are they adding it to be the neural spine which raises even more flags since the broken edges of one is already there. This vertebra is being sold as a Spinosaurus so it's always good practice to do a Google search and familiarize yourself with one. Scott Hartman's sketal drawings can be a good source. http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/ Not from Scott but here is an image of a dorsal vertebrae from a Spinosaurus. Compare it to the centrum in above specimen and draw your own conclusion. Identifying isolated vertebrae to a specific species from any locality is difficult enough. Identifying isolated centrums to a species is close to impossible especially from the Kem Kem. Comparative bones, images are just not available. Best to purchase a specimen because you like it and maybe someday it can be identified. For new collectors to the hobby always be cautious when you see matrix attached to a Kem Kem fossil. It's the media they use to hide imperfections, repairs and composites._20170327044351760.thumb.jpg.aef82742d2f9f31e638d1948081e7af6.jpg)
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Hello everybody I have some indeterminated Kem Kem fossils. The first one is a piece of a jaw. I think it's reptile, but I don't know for sure. Anyone suggestions? (first 2 pics) The second is also a jaw and I think this one might be a fish. (last 3 pics) Thanks already
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Picture taken under both UV and ordinary light References: Garassino, A., De Angeli, A. & Pasini, G. (2008): New decapod assemblage from the Upper Cretaceous (Cenomanian-Turonian) of Gara Sbaa, southeastern Morocco. Atti Soc. it. Sci. nat. Museo civ. Stor. nat. Milano, 149 (I): 37-67, Gennaio 2008
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Line drawing from Taverne and Capasso, 2023, p. 490. References: Taverne, L. and Capasso, L. (2023). Osteology and phylogenetic relationships of Agoultpycnodus aldrovandii gen. and sp. nov., a new pycnodont fish genus (Pycnodontidae) from the marine Upper Cretaceous of Morocco. Geo-Eco-Trop., 2021, 45, 3: 487-495. Taverne, L. and Capasso, L. (2023). Erratum: Osteology and phylogenetic relationships of Agoultpycnodus aldrovandii gen. and sp. nov., a new pycnodont fish genus (Pycnodontidae) from the marine Upper Cretaceous of Morocco. Geo-Eco-Trop., 2021, 45, 4 : 709-71
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Lit.: Martill, D., Ibrahim, N. Brito, P., Baider, L., Zhouri, S.. Loveridge, R., Naish, D. and Hing, R. (2011): A new Plattenkalk Konservat Lagerstätte in the Upper Cretaceous of Gara Sbaa, south-eastern Morocco. Cretaceous Research 32 (2011) 433-446 Cavin, L. & Dutheil, D. (1999) A new Cenomanian ichthyofauna from southeastern Morocco and its relationships with other early Late Cretaceous Moroccan faunas. Geologie en Mijnbouw 78: 261–266, 1999. Cavin, L., H. Tong, L. Boudad, C. Meister, A. Piuz, J. Tabouell, M. Aarab, R. Amiot, E. Buffetaut, G. dyke, S. Hua, and J. Le Loeuff (2010): Vertebrate assemblages from the early Late Cretaceous of southeastern Morocco: an overview. Journal of African Earth Sciences 57:391–412
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Lots of members in the forum collect Kem Kem material and a new relative to a crocodile has been described Lavocatchampsa sigogneaurussellae. Other crocodylomorphs that come from the Kem Kem include Hamadasuchus rebouli and Elosuchus cherifiensis both whose are mentioned on forum posts periodically because of their teeth. This new species is however much smaller than those two, 2 feet (60 cm) in length. What's cool about this discovery is that it was found with the upper and lower jaw preserved together with oddly shipped teeth that look mammal like. He possessed complex multicuspid teeth with for crunching through exoskeletons of insects, like mammals would. It's nice to see new material identified from the Kem Kem and now we have the opportunity to find and identify these teeth in the matrix pieces we collect. News Article: http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/30034/20161012/scientists-baffled-mammal-teeth-newly-discovered-crocodile-relative.htm Abstract with access to 7mb SVP paper http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02724634.2016.1211534
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Hey all, anyone would have a clue about these? thanks!
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