Does this seem geniune?

[Pleuromya]

Hi, I just noticed this fossil and wondered if it was genuine? I noticed it had no location details. Thank you.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Chris Jones
Just cropped picture to remove user information

[DatFossilBoy]

Hello and Welcome to the forum!!!

You can not post sellers names, infos, descriptions or site names such as the above on this forum. You can either delete the pictures and only show the fossil needed to ID or  @Fossildude19 (or another admin) will do it for you.   

As for the fossil itself, it looks genuine.

Kind regards

[Pleuromya]

I didn't realize that, thank you very much.

 

[Fossildude19]

Looks real to me - not a perfect example, which lends credence to the fact it is real. Missing the hands and not so great preservation of the pelvic girdle.

 

 

 

[connorp]

If it wasn't mentioned by the seller, it is (assuming it's real) Keichosaurus hui from the Triassic. It likely came from the Middle Triassic Guanling Formation in Guizhou Province, China.

[aeon.rocks]

Unprepped, real, probably... Or totally massacred with acid. Perhaps not best example to ask the questions below, but why do you just worry if it's real,  genuine? How will that help? You don't worry, that if it's not unprepped, that it's real and totally destroyed and I'm not sure why you would need garbage like that? If destroyed you are just paying for a strange looking rock... Why do people think they are smarter than the sellers of these and other kind of stuff and fakes floating around? Do you think that a low auction price makes it a good deal? There are literally thousands of Keichousaurus specimens available for sale (but you don't see all listed at once) to chose from (out of millions, perhaps billions in deposits), majority of these are destroyed in preparation, majority illegally smuggled out of China.

 

Excuse my curiosity (and please don't mistake it for arrogance), but why do you feel the need to buy that exact specimen? It's perhaps unprepared, or maybe totally destroyed, bad photo quality so difficult to guess, but we see destroyed fossils sell much too often and people who buy just worried if real... What's the point if it's real, when you are buying something that should have been a fossil or art, but in analogy to buying a car you are buying a car like this? In more than 50% of all fossils listed on your favourite auction sites, from re-sellers in China, Morocco, USA, Spain... And in doing so, just fueling the re-seller's margins and more cheap commercial destruction... Not fossils, but rocks with all details totally destroyed, burned or even worse. For decoration of your homes, what's the difference if it's a real destroyed fossils or if you sculpture a metamorphic rock and paint over?

 

 

 

 

[Bobby Rico]

It is always good to ask questions before you buy a fossil that your not familiar with. The key to getting a good specimen is to gain knowledge on the subject and be patient. There are a lot nicer  specimens than this  available so keep looking and posting on the TFF for help. 
 

[Troodon]

Ditto what everyone else is saying...pass on it, lots of nicer ones to be had.

[Fossildude19]

4 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

Excuse my curiosity (and please don't mistake it for arrogance), but why do you feel the need to buy that exact specimen?

 

Not everyone can afford perfect specimens.  Some people don't mind having a fossil that is less than perfect. I would rather have this one that looks real, than one that is heavily painted or carved or restored to look perfect.

 

And if this is a poor prep job, then it is almost certainly better looking than the nail prepped (butchered)/fake/composited trilobites and bird or turtle fossils from China or Morocco. Some of us are actually interested in the science behind some fossils, and study the morphology available to us via inexpensive fossils

 

Just some thoughts for you to consider.   

[Pleuromya]

Quote

 

Thank you all very much for your replies. I don't mind the damage, it's still a fossil. 

[Pleuromya]

Quote

 

I found this other one, at about half the size of the one in the original picture (10 by 7cm). Would this be a better choice?

[Fossildude19]

5 minutes ago, Chris Jones said:

I found this other one, at about half the size of the one in the original picture (10 by 7cm). Would this be a better choice?

 

May be slightly better preservation and prep, than the first one, but I'd bet there is paint on it. 

Better pictures would be needed to determine for sure.

[Pleuromya]

Thank you very much, I'll just wait for a different one to show up. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Chris Jones
Changed my opinion.

[Fossildude19]

Found better pictures. Looks like all the feet/hands are painted to me, along with some tail added.

The underneath looks OK, but this one has definitely been over-prepped. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pleuromya]

That's interesting, I see what you mean. Thank you.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Chris Jones

[Bobby Rico]

1 hour ago, Chris Jones said:

Thank you very much, I'll just wait for a different one to show up. 

There is definitely some good specimens at ok prices, so if you keep looking and don’t rush a purchase. It may take you some time to find a suitable one but I seen plenty of bargains in the past.

[Pleuromya]

Thanks, are there any websites you recommend?

[Bobby Rico]

3 minutes ago, Chris Jones said:

Thanks, are there any websites you recommend?

Sorry I don’t but I will ask around and pm you if I come up with anything . Sometimes our favourite auction site does have them for sale in the U.K. 

[Pleuromya]

Thank you.

[aeon.rocks]

8 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

Not everyone can afford perfect specimens.  Some people don't mind having a fossil that is less than perfect. I would rather have this one that looks real, than one that is heavily painted or carved or restored to look perfect.

 

And if this is a poor prep job, then it is almost certainly better looking than the nail prepped (butchered)/fake/composited trilobites and bird or turtle fossils from China or Morocco. Some of us are actually interested in the science behind some fossils, and study the morphology available to us via inexpensive fossils

 

Just some thoughts for you to consider.   

 

 

No fossil is perfect, and I guess that Keicho is not so cheap, that about the same $ couldn't afford a bit better prepared one (unless really bad photo and unpreped), you just need patience. Btw., I think it's unpreped, but photos are not good, so difficult to see. Ask the seller for clear high res photos first, then decide... It could be a very poor prep job or bad preservation too.

 

Thank you for your answer btw, Fossildude19! You say you are interested in the science behind some fossils and to study such specimens, I admire that and wish you luck. But if that's reason for buying these, i'm confused, because it's exactly for this reason that I ask what difference does it make for collectors, if a heavily butchered specimen is 100% genuine or not...  To study morphology of a butchered Keicho (or a trilobite since you mentioned) is imho just as good as to not study it at all or to study the photos or morphology in replicas. Do some research and compare the details... 

 

Quote

 

"certainly better looking than the nail prepped (butchered)/fake/composited trilobites and bird or turtle fossils from China or Morocco."

 

 

 

 

No it's not... It's the same. Regarding "nail prepped trilobites" - try to do it better. Often not so easy to prep as the soft shale trilobites or Wyoming fish fossils preped commercially in USA. Different preservation... But sure, the same questions apply for butchered commercial trilobites you see comming from Morocco and resold online... Does it matter if those are 100% authentic when totally butchered? And if you worry that you are buying a fake, don't you also worry that it's real and totally destroyed? Since the invention of "100% natural fossils" by some genious seller, seems that's all that matters, so a Keicho with paint on fingers and toes is a bad thing, but it's ok if premaxila, vertebral column, humerus and soft tissues i.e. are damaged with wire brush in preparation or if bones are dissolved in acid prep... 

 

I've heard "not everyone can afford" many times, but seems everyone can afford to throw the money away (for fakes and common butchered worthless fossils)! So consider this: 160$ (final price) is a lot of money for a fake, and we've seen these fakes go up to 500$+...  Good deal right? Maybe it will help you understand the question I asked - don't worry, I'm not trying to take your money, but if you do some research you might save some... 

 

[Fossildude19]

38 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

No fossil is perfect, and I guess that Keicho is not so cheap, that about the same $ couldn't afford a bit better prepared one (unless really bad photo and unpreped), you just need patience. Btw., I think it's unpreped, but photos are not good, so difficult to see. Ask the seller for clear high res photos first, then decide... It could be a very poor prep job or bad preservation too.

It may be un-prepped, maybe not. 

It is always best to research what you are looking to buy, or post it here to get some opinions on it. 

 

As an aside, please do not post photos of online advertisements that identify listings, sellers or advertising verbiage.  

38 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

Thank you for your answer btw, Fossildude19! You say you are interested in the science behind some fossils and to study such specimens, I admire that and wish you luck. But if that's reason for buying these, i'm confused, because it's exactly for this reason that I ask what difference does it make for collectors, if a heavily butchered specimen is 100% genuine or not...  To study morphology of a butchered Keicho (or a trilobite since you mentioned) is imho just as good as to not study it at all or to study the photos or morphology in replicas. 

Apparently, I was unclear, causing your confusion. 

I said, "Some of us are actually interested in the science behind some fossils, and study the morphology available to us via inexpensive fossils."

There is a difference between incomplete inexpensive fossils, and a few hundred dollar completely fake or extremely poorly prepped, composited, or poorly preserved/unprepped fossil. 

 

Many people looking to buy fossils cannot tell the difference between what a good or bad prep job is. They rely on us to answer or help to point out things to look for.

I applaud any who are looking to do this, and not waste a lot of money on fakes, composites, or bad prep jobs. Most people don't know where to begin to research these things, and start here.  

 

As far as studying examples to research and learn from, inexpensive partial fossils are fine. Replicas are fine, as long as they are advertised as such, and are accurate to the original fossil

You called the first fossil posted garbage. I disagree. It's not garbage, but I wouldn't pay what it's listed for, ... to me, it looks better than the painted one. Just my opinion.

 

For example, ... I just received a partial fish fossil from Madagascar. I got it for an extremely good price. Complete specimens run into the hundreds of dollars. I got mine for less than $25.00

I didn't mind that it was incomplete, as it still has some fine details that are easily studied. 

38 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

No it's not... It's the same. ... Does it matter if those are 100% authentic when totally butchered? And if you worry that you are buying a fake, don't you also worry that it's real and totally destroyed? 

They are not the same thing. But, to me, the keichousaur looks better than some of the more recently posted trilobites I have seen out there, on the market. 

To me the keichousaur first presented is not an awful prep job, and not a bad fossil, despite missing the feet and hands. 

 

Again, here, the OP is concerned as there have been fake/composite fossils posted. The fact that it may be poorly prepped is secondary to the first issue. 

Buyers are initially concerned with real or fake. The more news about fake fossils being an actual thing is driving this question. 

 

 I give credit to the OP for trying to discern something about the fossil. 

Your average fossil buyer may not know about what's good, real, fake, composite, carved, poorly prepped or preserved.

The first stop for many on the journey to discovery is The Fossil Forum.  

They are seeking education, and we try to help them to learn what to look for.

 

Berating a member for  " .. in doing so, just fueling the re-seller's margins and more cheap commercial destruction... Not fossils, but rocks with all details totally destroyed, burned or even worse. For decoration of your homes, what's the difference if it's a real destroyed fossils or if you sculpture a metamorphic rock and paint over?"   is not educating, in my opinion.

 

Again, they don't know the difference. Most people buying these expensive fossils are uneducated about fossils, and are unaware they are fueling the market. 

 

38 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said:

I've heard "not everyone can afford" many times, but seems everyone can afford to throw the money away (for fakes and common butchered worthless fossils)! So consider this: 160$ (final price) is a lot of money for a fake, and we've seen these fakes go up to 500$+...  Good deal right? Maybe it will help you understand the question I asked - don't worry, I'm not trying to take your money, but if you do some research you might save some... 

 

Educating by describing what is wrong with a fossil, either prepping, composition, or outright fakes is more helpful than asking a member why they care if it is real,  and simply stating it is garbage!

I am put in the mind of an old  proverb - "You can catch more flies with honey,  than with vinegar. "   

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

I said, "Some of us are actually interested in the science behind some fossils, and study the morphology available to us via inexpensive fossils."

There is a difference between incomplete inexpensive fossils, and a few hundred dollar completely fake or extremely poorly prepped, composited, or poorly preserved/unprepped fossil. 

 

 

 

If you find the price of this unpreped Keicho inexpensive for the preservation, then no point talking further...

 

Quote

Many people looking to buy fossils cannot tell the difference between what a good or bad prep job is. They rely on us to answer or help to point out things to look for. I applaud any who are looking to do this, and not waste a lot of money on fakes, composites, or bad prep jobs. Most people don't know where to begin to research these things, and start here.  

 

Yes, and I applaud them too, it's a way to learn and we all learn... I never said people should not ask questions or that partial inexpensive good preped or preserved specimens (with fine details) are not fossils or garbage or not worth the money. I actually used a different word (The forum editor changed the word automatically. ) for specimens butchered so badly in prep, that it almost makes no difference if buying fakes - can be only used as a paper weight, but many people buy for not so cheap price, thinking they get a good deal... I don't mind, but I'm curious why people buy that and worry if it's real, don't worry however how destroyed? As you said, many people looking to buy fossils cannot tell the difference... So perhaps we can agree, that such questions are good and should be asked more often, if they get collectors to think and do the research... 

 

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...is not educating, in my opinion

 

Sure it is, perhaps you find my appoach to harsh, althoug I don't mean it in a bad way, maybe i should have formed the questions in more sophisticated english, but the point remains the same and perhaps OP is on a good way to avoid chasing the good deals by buying the first fake he will see. I think that such questions are more educational as just saying: "Looks real to me - not a perfect example, which lends credence to the fact it is real. Missing the hands and not so great preservation of the pelvic girdle." ...

 

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They are not the same thing. 

 

No, but a fast commercial prep is a fast commercial prep, doesn't matter what the fossil is. The Keicho I think is actually unpreped (mostly), just split, but photos are bad and was tricky to say from 1 pic. It should prep easy and perhaps turn out not bad, but good preserved ones are found a bit deeper in matrix... It's sold as is for a reason! If that would have been a preped one, however, that would be a really poor commercial prep job imo.

 

OP.:  Checked out your Keicho on the auction site... Real, unpreped, but for the price you can get a better preserved one. Don't rush, keep learning, check different sources, compar detils on photos... Save money... Or dive in (it's real), satisfy the need and learn from this experience. The choice is yours. There's a good reason why it's sold unprepared.  With some patience you can find a decent already prepared one for even a bit less or around that price...  As mentioned, think about the question... And don't underestimate sellers on your favourite auction site.

 

These are very common, but illegal to export,  all preped commercially, but there are differences in techniques used, dealers find a way to smuggle them out of China, because they can make a lot of money with naive buyers, who think real Keicho are rare... And regarding online auction sites, that's where most of the poor quality ones ends, for ridiculous price. I'm offered these every week, I don't buy, because it's illegal material and I don't need, but a few pics for all who think Keichos are rare:

 

 

[JohnJ]

Please avoid posting prices for sale listed items.  Thanks.