Holzmaden/Posidonienschiefer bed number - 102, 12?

[TqB]

I've just purchased a fine slab of belemnites from Holzmaden and the stratigraphy is given as Posidonienschifer, Lias epsilon II-102.

I know that epsilon is Lower Toarcian but please could anyone enlighten me about the  II-102?

                                             

I particularly want to correlate this accurately with Yorkshire, if possible!

 

@belemniten ?

 

EDIT: I've just checked the seller's other material and one that I'd expect to be from the same beds is given as "II-12" - so @oilshale is almost certainly right with his answer below, and it seems to be near the base of the Bifrons Zone. 

 

 

[Ludwigia]

2 hours ago, TqB said:

I've just purchased a fine slab of belemnites from Holzmaden and the stratigraphy is given as Posidonienschifer, Lias epsilon II-102.

I know that epsilon II (2) is the Upper Toarcian but please could anyone enlighten me about the "102"?

I assume it's a subdivision or bed number but I can't find a detailed stratigraphy (not being able to read German). I particularly want to correlate this accurately with Yorkshire, if possible!

 

@belemniten ?

Hi Tarquin. Sorry that I can't help you here, but you're probably right to call on Sebastian. Even if he's not sure himself, he probably has some contacts who could enlighten us.

[oilshale]

Hmm, Lias Epsilon 2 - 102? That's strange - I've only heard of Lias epsilon 2 -12:

 

[TqB]

1 hour ago, Ludwigia said:

Hi Tarquin. Sorry that I can't help you here, but you're probably right to call on Sebastian. Even if he's not sure himself, he probably has some contacts who could enlighten us.

Thanks for looking, Roger.

 

1 hour ago, oilshale said:

Hmm, Lias Epsilon 2 - 102? That's strange - I've only heard of Lias epsilon 2 -12:

 

Thank you - it may well be that as the full description is "Lias epsilon II-102- Schlacke". 

What is "schlacke" geologically? Translations I've looked at give variants on "slag" or "cinder", or possibly "bottom".

 

EDIT: I've just checked the seller's other material and one that I'd expect from the same beds is given as "II-12" so you're probably right! Thanks again! Any idea what zone/subzone this would be?

[oilshale]

According to this thesis, it should be somewhere between (?) the falciferum  Zone / falciferum Subzone and the bifrons Zone /commune Subzone (not 100% sure…II 12 is missing, but II 11 is indicated)

https://d-nb.info/967067081/34 (page 20...)

slag or cinder is correct - I would guess a bioturbated layer.

[TqB]

1 hour ago, oilshale said:

According to this thesis, it should be somewhere between (?) the falciferum  Zone / falciferum Subzone and the bifrons Zone /commune Subzone (not 100% sure…II 12 is missing, but II 11 is indicated)

https://d-nb.info/967067081/34 (page 20...)

slag or cinder is correct - I would guess a bioturbated layer.

Thank you very much, that's exactly what I wanted! It fits the belemnites themselves well, and the similarities and differences with Yorkshire are interesting. I'll do a topic when the slab gets here.

[belemniten]

Sorry I am a little late. But I agree with @oilshale. Nice overview!

 

In the so called "Schlacke" belemnites are very very common. But the layer is very hard so the preparation isn't easy. It's also the layer where bones and teeth are commonest.

I would be interested to see that piece. 

[siteseer]

8 hours ago, oilshale said:

According to this thesis, it should be somewhere between (?) the falciferum  Zone / falciferum Subzone and the bifrons Zone /commune Subzone (not 100% sure…II 12 is missing, but II 11 is indicated)

https://d-nb.info/967067081/34 (page 20...)

slag or cinder is correct - I would guess a bioturbated layer.

 

I studied geology and German at school.  I wasn't familiar with the word at all.  Obviously, you guys know German.  I looked at an older geology reference in English thinking there might be a similarly-spelled term but found nothing like that.  I wondered if it "schlacke" could be a "lag deposit."

 

Anytime anyone brings up Holzmaden, I have to put in a plug for "Das Holzmadebuch," a beautiful reference that could be called an art book.  It's a pictorial guide to Holzmaden fossils with even a section on how they've been prepared.  It's in German but I think it speaks the language of fossil collecting that we can all understand.

 

Jess

[oilshale]

3 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

I studied geology and German at school.  I wasn't familiar with the word at all.  Obviously, you guys know German.  I looked at an older geology reference in English thinking there might be a similarly-spelled term but found nothing like that.  I wondered if it "schlacke" could be a "lag deposit."

….

Jess

 

"Schlacke" (slag) is not an "official" term used in the geological literature but a term used by (local) quarrymen to designate a particular layer. "Lag deposit" might be a possibility. I guess "Schlacke" is a useless layer on top of a good layer.

For "Gelbe Platte" (yellow slab) the meaning is easy to guess.
"Wilder Schiefer" und "Wilder Stein" ("wild shale" and "wild stone"), for example, might indicate irregularly layered deposits.
For other names like "Falchen" or "Hainzen", I do not know the meaning either.
These are often very, very old, dialectal terms (and I doubt that even today's quarrymen know their origin).

[TqB]

12 hours ago, belemniten said:

Sorry I am a little late. But I agree with @oilshale. Nice overview!

 

In the so called "Schlacke" belemnites are very very common. But the layer is very hard so the preparation isn't easy. It's also the layer where bones and teeth are commonest.

I would be interested to see that piece. 

Thanks, Sebastian, that's good to know. This slab has a scattering of belemnites (and two teeth!), maybe not quite a schlachtfeld. It seems to correspond to the so called "Hard Shales", Bifrons Zone of Whitby, which is immediately above the well known schlachtfeld of that area - the species look much the same but with some epirostra. I'll do a proper topic when I get it - actually, it will be a birthday present so I have to wait a few weeks!

 

 

6 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

I studied geology and German at school.  I wasn't familiar with the word at all.  Obviously, you guys know German.  I looked at an older geology reference in English thinking there might be a similarly-spelled term but found nothing like that.  I wondered if it "schlacke" could be a "lag deposit."

 

Anytime anyone brings up Holzmaden, I have to put in a plug for "Das Holzmadebuch," a beautiful reference that could be called an art book.  It's a pictorial guide to Holzmaden fossils with even a section on how they've been prepared.  It's in German but I think it speaks the language of fossil collecting that we can all understand.

 

Jess

Thanks, Jess - it does seem to be a concentration layer and lag deposit fits. I know the book but don't have one yet - it is beautiful!

 

2 hours ago, oilshale said:

 

"Schlacke" (slag) is not an "official" term used in the geological literature but a term used by (local) quarrymen to designate a particular layer. "Lag deposit" might be a possibility. I guess "Schlacke" is a useless layer on top of a good layer.

For "Gelbe Platte" (yellow slab) the meaning is easy to guess.
"Wilder Schiefer" und "Wilder Stein" ("wild shale" and "wild stone"), for example, might indicate irregularly layered deposits.
For other names like "Falchen" or "Hainzen", I do not know the meaning either.
These are often very, very old, dialectal terms (and I doubt that even today's quarrymen know their origin).

The names are interesting - the same has happened with many Lias (and other) beds in the UK - I just found this list of some Blue Lias limestones: "Skulls, Venty, Glass Bottle, Gumption, Copper, Mongrel, Best Bed, Rattle, Quick, and Top Quick". These are all used in Lang's classic paper on the Blue Lias of Lyme Regis (1923). I guess it was Quenstedt who immortalised many of the German ones.

[siteseer]

11 hours ago, oilshale said:

 

"Schlacke" (slag) is not an "official" term used in the geological literature but a term used by (local) quarrymen to designate a particular layer. "Lag deposit" might be a possibility. I guess "Schlacke" is a useless layer on top of a good layer.

For "Gelbe Platte" (yellow slab) the meaning is easy to guess.
"Wilder Schiefer" und "Wilder Stein" ("wild shale" and "wild stone"), for example, might indicate irregularly layered deposits.
For other names like "Falchen" or "Hainzen", I do not know the meaning either.
These are often very, very old, dialectal terms (and I doubt that even today's quarrymen know their origin).

 

Okay.  I was looking for a technical term.  A friend's uncle owns a flagstone quarry in Arizona.  There is a thin sandstone layer that has tetrapod tracks which is useless in his business because of its fragility and I think he calls it the "junk" or maybe some version of a word for that too.  He lets my friend take all of the useless rock he wants.

 

Jess