Ruger9a Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Morning folks. I have another item from my unidentified drawer and I'm hoping someone can help identify it. This was part of a lot sale from the 2002 Tucson show with no descriptions, it was from estate sale being sold by a friend. All I know is he collected many west coast items. The actual "honey bee" is 21mm long and 20mm wide. Any help is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 It looks like the fossil dragonfly larva Libellula doris maybe from the Oligocene of Italy to me. 9 1 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Incredible ! It looks almost like one that crawled out last summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 The proportions do not look like a be. I think Adam is on the right track with dragonfly larva. Don 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Ruger- if this is 2cm it would be a very big honey bee! Larger than any Bumble bees I've seen. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger9a Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 1 hour ago, caldigger said: Ruger- if this is 2cm it would be a very big honey bee! Larger than any Bumble bees I've seen. The measurements were taken from the largest parts of the fossil, leg tip to leg tip and head to tail. They may be off a tad, but mostly accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger9a Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 54 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said: It looks like the fossil dragonfly larva Libellula doris maybe from the Oligocene of Italy to me. Thank you Tidgy'a Dad!! I did some research on your suggestion and the photo (only one I found) looks exactly like my specimen and the description matches it also. I'll look for additional photos and information but I believe you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for taking the time to help identify this mystery item. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Time to update the old labels! A quick review shows the new classification is: Oryctodiplax gypsorum "Earlier authors had these fossils always assigned to “Libellula doris”, a species described and named by HEER (1849) from the Late Miocene of Oeningen in Bavaria, and based only on pre-imaginal stages. CAVALLO & GALLETTI (1987) considered this identification as being incorrect, since the specimens from the Alba area possess a shorter and broader abdomen than Libellula doris, and have occasionally short lateral spines on their 8th and 9th segments, which are completely missing in Libellula doris. Additionally, in contrast to Libellula doris the fossil compression larvae from the Alba area possess a shorter 10th segment, the anal appendages are much smaller, the legs are slightly larger and the size of the mature larvae is apparently a bit smaller (Fig. 5). The bulk of larvae preserved as compression fossils from the Alba area, which exhibit quite some morphological variety, have therefore only been assigned for practical reasons to a single extinct genus and species under the collective name Oryctodiplax gypsorum of the family Libellulidae. From the observable morphological characters it appears reasonable to include the fossil specimens embedded in gypsum crystals also into the same systematic unit." text from: Schlüter, T., Kohring, R., Gregor, H.J. 2002 Dragonflies Preserved in Transparent Gypsum Crystals from the Messinian (Upper Miocene) of Alba, Northern Italy. Acta Zoologica Cracoviensia, 46:373-379 PDF LINK Cavallo, O., Galletti, P.A. 1987 Studi di Carlo Sturani su Odonati e altri Insetti Fossili del Messiniano Albese (Piemonte) con Descrizione di Oryctodiplax gypsorum n. gen. n. sp. [Studies by Carlo Sturani on Odonati and other Fossil Insects of the Messinian Alba (Piedmont) with Description of Oryctodiplax gypsorum n. gen. n. sp.] Bollettino della Societa Paleontologica Italiana, 26(1-2):151-176 PDF LINK 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Wow, cool specimen! And the paper @piranha found? Amazing! Who thought animals could be preserved inside gypsum crystals? -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kmiecik Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 8 hours ago, caldigger said: Ruger- if this is 2cm it would be a very big honey bee! Larger than any Bumble bees I've seen. Come to Schaumburg, Il. We have them here pushing 1-1/4". They sound like electric drones. But yes, it does look more like a dragonfly larva. Mark. Fossil hunting is easy -- they don't run away when you shoot at them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger9a Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share Posted February 10, 2020 5 hours ago, piranha said: Time to update the old labels! A quick review shows the new classification is: Oryctodiplax gypsorum text from: Schlüter, T., Kohring, R., Gregor, H.J. 2002 Dragonflies preserved in transparent gypsum crystals from the Messinian (Upper Miocene) of Alba, Northern Italy. Acta Zoologica Cracoviensia, 46:373-379 PDF LINK Earlier authors had these fossils always assigned to “Libellula doris”, a species described and named by HEER (1849) from the Late Miocene of Oeningen in Bavaria, and based only on pre-imaginal stages. CAVALLO & GALLETTI (1987) considered this identification as being incorrect, since the specimens from the Alba area possess a shorter and broader abdomen than Libellula doris, and have occasionally short lateral spines on their 8th and 9th segments, which are completely missing in Libellula doris. Additionally, in contrast to Libellula doris the fossil compression larvae from the Alba area possess a shorter 10th segment, the anal appendages are much smaller, the legs are slightly larger and the size of the mature larvae is apparently a bit smaller (Fig. 5). The bulk of larvae preserved as compression fossils from the Alba area, which exhibit quite some morphological variety, have therefore only been assigned for practical reasons to a single extinct genus and species under the collective name Oryctodiplax gypsorum of the family Libellulidae. From the observable morphological characters it appears reasonable to include the fossil specimens embedded in gypsum crystals also into the same systematic unit. Cavallo, O., Galletti, P.A. 1987 Studi di Carlo Sturani su Odonati e altri insetti fossili del Messiniano albese (Piemonte) con descrizione di Oryctdiplax gypsorum n. gen. n. sp. [Studies by Carlo Sturani on Odonati and other fossil insects of the Messinian Alba (Piedmont) with description of Oryctdiplax gypsorum n. gen. n. sp.] Bollettino della Societa Paleontologica Italiana, 26(1/2):151-176 Thank you Piranha! Everything I can find reflects exactly what you provided. I appreciate your time and research very much. I can correctly display this item now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 There's another possibility if the specimen is from California: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1303884 You'd have to compare matrix pieces but it's more likely from the Italian site as there was a time (80's-90's) when dragonfly nymph specimens were easy to find on the market particularly at the the larger shows like Tucson. Some pieces had a few on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 29 minutes ago, siteseer said: You'd have to compare matrix pieces but it's more likely from the Italian site as there was a time (80's-90's) when dragonfly nymph specimens were easy to find on the market particularly at the the larger shows like Tucson. Some pieces had a few on them. Sì, sono d'accordo....la litologia della matrice è coerente con gli esemplari provenienti dall' Italia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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