Claw ID help please

[LLPaleo]

I recieved this claw a while back with no Identification or locality information.  If I remember correctly it was said to come out of the Hell Creek formation in South Dakota.

It is weather but still has some strong features.

Does anyone have an idea on its ID? If I need to post more pictures I sure can.

 

[jpc]

theropod claw is as detailed as I can get, esp if it is indeed from the Hell Ctreek.  Maybe troodon can say more.

[Troodon]

Preservation  does not look like Hell Creek if you did not get any provenance when purchased why do you think its from there?

[LLPaleo]

Troodon,

I didnt purchase, I'm getting info for a client and they believed they were informed it was from there. I understand that typically this color isnt present in the hell creek but it does happen. My main hang up on the ID is on the articulation. How it tapers and is offset. 

[Troodon]

The articulation is key.  I have most of the claws from the HC and nothing jumps out.  The closest is the Digit I the dew claw of a Troodontid, added photo,  but there are difference.   The preservation suggest Mongolia especially with the cream color on the interior surface of the broken end..  

 

this one is Judith River Fm

[LLPaleo]

Thank you for everyone's opinions. I think it's better to be safer than sorry and will ship this back to my client and advise them to return it to wherever they recieved this fossil.  If there is a chance that its Mongolian I dont want it in my possession. 

Thank you again everyone

[LLPaleo]

It would make sense why I cant ID it properly 

[SULLY]

Per our conversation, it seems others were thinking the same thing I told. I think you’re making the correct decision for sure.

[hxmendoza]

If I can add my two cents in. I have seen several Hell Creek Formation claws and bones this color before. In my collection as well as at DMNS. It’s been bleached and tumbled. So it bleached evenly. And that accounts for the smoothness of the wear at the break off area at the proximal end. 
 

It’s from an Anzu wyliei hand claw. Just the front half tip portion. I’ve superimposed it over another Anzu hand claw and it’s a perfect to near perfect fit.

 

It’s also laterally compressed like the Anzu hand claws. 
 

Cheers everyone. 

[PaleoNoel]

I second Henry's opinion, I believe it's Anzu and the bleached coloration is due to exposure to sunlight. Nice pickup!

[Troodon]

I dont believe its Anzu.  The ventral edge is continuous to the tubercle in Anzu has seen in Henry's photo.  Bleached surface finds would not have the same color on all sides and inside

 

 

[hxmendoza]

That’s not continuous. That’s a result of wear. Seen it a lot of times in broken off and tumbled partial claws and tips. 
 

And again, I’ve seen all around bleached cream colored claws from the Hell Creek. In fact I have a Pachy claw (though it may be a Thescelosaurus), and a Triceratops Epiossification, and Dromy sickle claw, all that color,  all from the Hell Creek Formation. I’m away from home right now so I can’t take pics. 
 

Oh, and I also once owned a large adult T. rex foot claw that was bleached all around like that too. 
 

But in the end, it’s whatever evidence you choose to accept. And no issues here with disagreement. It happens and is always welcome. 
 

Cheers everyone!
 

[TyBoy]

I agree with Troodon that proximal end looks naturally reduced around the perimeter with end missing.  No wear present.   Not Anzu

[LordTrilobite]

I'm in the camp that it's not worn down. I think that's pretty much the whole original claw.

[hxmendoza]

Let me try to explain this better to everyone here from a fossil preparator and restorer’s point of view and as well as having asked this question of three overseeing paleontologists over my years prepping at DMNS.

 

Dependent on the bone itself, travelling to its final resting place in a wash zone or micro site. Upon breakage, bones and particularly claws with thin walls, can experience tumbling from the water movement. The edges of the break can experience water abrasion and other mechanical wear from contact with sediment and/or other obstacles, that actually smooth off the remnant thinner bone. Kind of like spalling on a tooth and the resultant smoothing out of the break area on that tooth. 
 

On the edges of the bone or claw, we can call this type of smoothing inwards a coning effect. The reverse of the coning seen at the inside/exit point on a skull penetrated by a bullet. The coning occurs and it can be quite smooth (I’ve personally seen it at autopsies I’ve attended). The bone looks smooth. And that’s from a forceful passing of a bullet. 
 

Well now, from water abrasion, the thin edges of the break on a claw or small bone that gets tumbled around much easier than a larger bone, get worn smooth. Particularly on the outside surface of the exposed bone of the claw. It results in a reversed coning effect. 
 

I’ve seen it plenty of times in the paleo lab over two decades. I’ve asked about it and was given the same answer that it is not the true outline of the bone there; that it is a smoothly worn edge from taphonomic causes. I had the honor of prepping under the late Mike Getty. We had this discussion also. He also told me such.
 

This is why the comment above, stating the claw is pretty complete is incorrect. It is far from being complete. The whole back end (proximal) half of this claw is missing. It’s broken off where the hollow of the claw would be starting. These claws are hollow roughly from the middle of the claw to the back end (articulating area).
 

I’ve attached the pics of a Hell Creek dromaeosaur hand claw I worked on before restoration. Now this claw has a much smaller surface area at the break compared to the OP claw. But the same thing happened there, just at the opposite end. I couldn’t get any closer, because, first of all, I wasn’t trying to provide evidence to prove a point like this when working on this claw originally. So the picture isn’t sharp but the coning was there nonetheless and I’ve marked the area with small yellow hashes. 
 

So in the next picture I roughly drew a general break and coning effect to illustrate that the dashed continuation the bone surface would follow from the end of the true outside edge of the break and not from where it cones and is smoothed out. 
 

The third and last picture is my rough drawing of how the claw tip should be extended and restored. Now common sense. Would you rather me restore it from the end of the coned edge as in the top illustration? Or restore it from the end of the edge of the claw’s bone surface before the slope inwards from the coning effect?

 

What does your common sense tell you?

[hxmendoza]

So do you think the claw should and would’ve looked like this:

[hxmendoza]

Or this:

[hxmendoza]

And let me add that this smooth coning effect can run the entire periphery of the break edges. As seen in the photos of the OP claw pics.

[hxmendoza]

Also, here are pics of some of my personal collection fossils, all from the Hell Creek Fm., that exhibit equal, or near equal sun bleaching all around. 

[hxmendoza]

This is why I strongly believe it’s the whole tip portion of an Anzu wyliei hand claw or some other unnamed Hell Creek Oviraptorosaur.

[TheClawGuy]

As for locality... I own HC this color but also looks quite close to another location which shall not be spoken. But as for ID, Mr. hxmendoza is correct. I used similar sorcery but feel it feels in this section if the claw much better. The blood grooves match perfectly coinciding with the curve of the claw as well as the height per section. It literally looks like to was pulled out of that exact claw 

[TyBoy]

This was a dead topic not sure why you needed to open it.

Henry I think you are trying to hard to build a case that does not fit your examples. We have a clear natural ridge on the proximal end of that claw that is not wear nor does it work any examples you are trying to show.  Its a foot claw imo. 

The colors your are showings also do not match the specimen in question and is more typical of what I see from Asia.

 

The continuation you are showing of that dip on the ventral side looks to be unique on claws, just odd.  The dorsal edge is much lower than shown and only a small part of the the articulation surface is missing  .

 

Will agree to disagree this subject, enough said.

 

[hxmendoza]

5 hours ago, TyBoy said:

This was a dead topic not sure why you needed to open it.

Henry I think you are trying to hard to build a case that does not fit your examples. We have a clear natural ridge on the proximal end of that claw that is not wear nor does it work any examples you are trying to show.  Its a foot claw imo. 

The colors your are showings also do not match the specimen in question and is more typical of what I see from Asia.

 

The continuation you are showing of that dip on the ventral side looks to be unique on claws, just odd.  The dorsal edge is much lower than shown and only a small part of the the articulation surface is missing  .

 

Will agree to disagree this subject, enough said.

 

@TyBoy that would be the most laterally compressed foot claw I’ve ever seen, on any dinosaur, all the way back to the articulating end. Only Dromy Sickle claws would be that proportionately laterally compressed. And this isn’t a sickle claw. And their running claws are laterally compressed but not this much proportionately. And your argument about the edge being natural would be counterproductive to it being so also.

Troodontid claws can also be laterally compressed but still have the claw inflate towards the proximal end like a long tapered triangle from dorsal and ventral view. Like the Dromy running claws. This one does not.  
 

So I would like to see an example from you of a foot claw that is exactly laterally compressed all the way like this OP claw. Because I’m always up for learning about new dinosaurs. And I’ve seen the foot claws of just about all the known Hell Creek, JRF, and Jurassic aged dinosaurs, as well as most all the Mongolian ones.
 

And I’d like to know who it is you think you are that you had the authority to say to me this argument was “a dead topic” from a post earlier this month? This isn’t even your post.

 

It may be dead in terms of the original poster saying the claw would be sent back or the sale cancelled. But it’s not dead when it comes to trying to put out educational evidence (whether you yourself accept it or not) for others to read and make their own determinations.

[-Andy-]

14 minutes ago, hxmendoza said:

But it’s not dead when it comes to trying to put out educational evidence for others to read and make their own determinations.

 

This is a very good point. I often see threads and photos from TFF show up on Google search. I also find myself going back to threads from over 6 years ago or older to gain a better understanding of fossil IDs. If updated info or reasonable points of view can be provided, then even "dead" threads should be revived

 

Anyway, @Troodon @hxmendoza @TheClawGuy are some of the best claw experts I know of. All of their points are valid

[JohnJ]

There is plenty of justification in commenting on such a recent topic.  Let's please keep the discussion civil and on topic.  Thanks.