Carcharocles aksuaticus

[BellamyBlake]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been looking for a Carcharocles aksuaticus tooth online. It seems really hard to find one, which leads me to believe there might be a synonym for it that I don't know about (other than Otodus aksuaticus). There was a thread here a few years ago wherein someone suggested that Otodus subserratus may be the same thing. Based on what I can tell, that isn't true. However, could anyone confirm whether this is accurate please?

[Praefectus]

Otodus aksuaticus, mugodzharicus, and sometimes even auriculatus are used to refer to partially serrated transitional teeth. This is part of the lumper splitter debate. Some authors lump multiple “species” together under a single name while others divide the lineage up according to the tiniest differences. Regardless of the name, transitional teeth are extremely rare. I’m still looking to add one to my collection too.

[Praefectus]

@MarcoSr can explain better than me. 

[BellamyBlake]

14 minutes ago, Praefectus said:

Otodus aksuaticus, mugodzharicus, and sometimes even auriculatus are used to refer to partially serrated transitional teeth. This is part of the lumper splitter debate. Some authors lump multiple “species” together under a single name while others divide the lineage up according to the tiniest differences. Regardless of the name, transitional teeth are extremely rare. I’m still looking to add one to my collection too.

Thank you for explaining. I've read a little about this and am glad you confirmed my assumption - that these divisions are a topic of heated debate. I also happened by the Mugodzharicus species, which seems about equally rare. A transitional, partially serrated tooth like Aksuaticus or Mugodzharicus is the last one I need for my Megalodon evolutionary collection as well.

[Al Dente]

The www.elasmo.com website has a good topic on the transition of Otodus to Carcharocles.

 

 

[siteseer]

2 hours ago, Praefectus said:

Otodus aksuaticus, mugodzharicus, and sometimes even auriculatus are used to refer to partially serrated transitional teeth. This is part of the lumper splitter debate. Some authors lump multiple “species” together under a single name while others divide the lineage up according to the tiniest differences. Regardless of the name, transitional teeth are extremely rare. I’m still looking to add one to my collection too.

 

I don't know if they are actually rare.  Back in the mid--90's, these transitional teeth and a lot of other Eocene-Oligocene teeth were coming out of Kazakhstan.  There was all kinds of stuff.  It showed up in European shows first and then American shows like the Tucson ones.  The transitional teeth sold out even when the price was rather high for the time and a few collectors bought numerous specimens.  These days, the only specimens for sale are what is going back on the market from that time, collectors cashing out on a few specimens here and there.  I was told that the productive sites were cleaned out.  The areas need more weathering or people need to do more scouting.

 

The truly rare stuff were teeth like Xiphodolamia and Trigonotodus tusbairicus.

 

Jess 

 

[Miocene_Mason]

I have a one which I found in MD. They are fairly uncommon, but not incredibly so. The sites are just hard to get access to. There’s one site in MD, there’s the London Clay of England, and then there’s Kazakhstan. @MarcoSr and kin have more than you could imagine, as they have visited the MD site diligently for a long time.

 

I still want to find a mugodzharicus.

[siteseer]

12 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

I have a one which I found in MD. They are fairly uncommon, but not incredibly so. The sites are just hard to get access to. There’s one site in MD, there’s the London Clay of England, and then there’s Kazakhstan. @MarcoSr and kin have more than you could imagine, as they have visited the MD site diligently for a long time.

 

I still want to find a mugodzharicus.

 

Yeah, I should have drawn a distinction.  Nobody had been collecting the Kazakhstan sites or at least not hitting them hard so scientists and private collectors found a lot of stuff.  I hear the transitional teeth are rare in the London Clay and I've seen only a few of them from the Nanjemoy.  I think it's a different zone than what was accessible at the Muddy Creek/Fisher-Sullivan site.

 

Jess

[Praefectus]

Maybe "extremely rare" comes across a bit too strong. Transitional teeth are uncommon. 

[Miocene_Mason]

14 minutes ago, siteseer said:

I think it's a different zone than what was accessible at the Muddy Creek/Fisher-Sullivan site.

Indeed, it’s the base of Bed B of the Potapaco member. This means it’s older ypresian than the MD site which is Woodstock member if memory serves. Not many Otodus in muddy creek from what I’ve heard, I assume shallow water environment but I’d have to look that up in the literature. No serrated teeth that I’ve heard of.

[MarcoSr]

4 hours ago, Praefectus said:

@MarcoSr can explain better than me. 

 

5 hours ago, Praefectus said:

Otodus aksuaticus, mugodzharicus, and sometimes even auriculatus are used to refer to partially serrated transitional teeth. This is part of the lumper splitter debate. Some authors lump multiple “species” together under a single name while others divide the lineage up according to the tiniest differences. Regardless of the name, transitional teeth are extremely rare. I’m still looking to add one to my collection too.

1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

I have a one which I found in MD. They are fairly uncommon, but not incredibly so. The sites are just hard to get access to. There’s one site in MD, there’s the London Clay of England, and then there’s Kazakhstan. @MarcoSr and kin have more than you could imagine, as they have visited the MD site diligently for a long time.

 

I still want to find a mugodzharicus.

 

1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

Indeed, it’s the base of Bed B of the Potapaco member. This means it’s older ypresian than the MD site which is Woodstock member if memory serves. Not many Otodus in muddy creek from what I’ve heard, I assume shallow water environment but I’d have to look that up in the literature. No serrated teeth that I’ve heard of.

 

There aren't any transitional Otodus teeth in the Eocene Potapaco B Member of the Nanjemoy Formation at the old Muddy Creek site.  Also very few Otodus obliquus at the old Muddy Creek site.  The transitional Otodus teeth are found in the Eocene Woodstock Member of the Nanjemoy Formation in Maryland.  I'm really not a splitter so I don't normally try to separate transitional teeth between Otodus aksuaticus and Otodus mugodzharicus.  The Woodstock Member in Maryland has Otodus obliquus as well as transitional Otodus teeth (both aksuaticus and mugodzharicus if you want to split them).  There are also Otodus auriculatus in Maryland which come from an Eocene reworked layer which overlies the Woodstock Member.  As far as rare, you rarely see the transitional teeth for sale and there are only a handful of sites where they have been found worldwide.  I have the nicer of my transitional teeth in the below Riker display case (they are below the shark centrum).  The largest is 3'' slant height.  I have another thirty or so that are damaged and/or water worn.  And I don't sell any of my fossils.

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.