paleo.nath Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 I’ve just found this tooth in some Permian micro matrix from the Wellington formation, it is serrated and around a centimeter long. I’m thinking It’s dimetrodon or some sort of other basal synapsid 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marumo Posted September 6, 2020 Share Posted September 6, 2020 Certainly could be Dimetrodon, but I 100% agree it's at the very least a basal synapsid. The very finely serrated edges identify it to me as an early synapsid tooth. If the middle section of the tooth were preserved it'd be a lot easier to confirm it to be a Dimetrodon tooth since several species of Dimetrodon had "tear-shaped" teeth. I can't really tell from the angle of the photo if both sides of the tooth are extending equally away from the crown, but if they are, I'd be more willing to bet it's a Dimetrodon tooth. I'm not very well versed in the Wellington Formation, but I am aware of Ophiacodon and Edaphosaurus being found at this Formation, which are both early synapsids. Off this picture alone, I'd agree and say Dimetrodon is a safe guess, but it might be worth checking out those other two synapsids? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinodigger Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 Yup, ddon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleo.nath Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleo.nath Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 On 9/6/2020 at 7:38 PM, marumo said: Certainly could be Dimetrodon, but I 100% agree it's at the very least a basal synapsid. The very finely serrated edges identify it to me as an early synapsid tooth. If the middle section of the tooth were preserved it'd be a lot easier to confirm it to be a Dimetrodon tooth since several species of Dimetrodon had "tear-shaped" teeth. I can't really tell from the angle of the photo if both sides of the tooth are extending equally away from the crown, but if they are, I'd be more willing to bet it's a Dimetrodon tooth. I'm not very well versed in the Wellington Formation, but I am aware of Ophiacodon and Edaphosaurus being found at this Formation, which are both early synapsids. Off this picture alone, I'd agree and say Dimetrodon is a safe guess, but it might be worth checking out those other two synapsids? Thank you very much! I was certain it was an early Synapsid as well, I did check out the others and it seems Dimetrodon is a safe bet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleo.nath Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 On 9/6/2020 at 10:39 PM, dinodigger said: Yup, ddon. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhysicist Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Dare I challenge this id...? Why must it not be an orthacanth/xenacanth shark? Is it simply a matter of size of the tooth or shape of the serrations (or both)? "Argumentation cannot suffice for the discovery of new work, since the subtlety of Nature is greater many times than the subtlety of argument." - Carl Sagan "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." - Richard Feynman Collections: Hell Creek Microsite | Hell Creek/Lance | Dinosaurs | Sharks | Squamates | Post Oak Creek | North Sulphur River | Lee Creek | Aguja | Permian | Devonian | Triassic | Harding Sandstone Instagram: @thephysicist_tff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyw Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 6 hours ago, ThePhysicist said: Dare I challenge this id...? Why must it not be an orthacanth/xenacanth shark? Is it simply a matter of size of the tooth or shape of the serrations (or both)? Because it looks nothing like either of those teeth... Shape, size, serrations etc... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePhysicist Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Randyw said: Because it looks nothing like either of those teeth Ok cool. I've found isolated orthacanth cusps that looked very similar, at least to me, and not too many dimetrodon teeth. I'm still new to permian fossils. Could you elaborate on the serrations? I'd like to be able to distinguish between the two for smaller teeth or partials. "Argumentation cannot suffice for the discovery of new work, since the subtlety of Nature is greater many times than the subtlety of argument." - Carl Sagan "I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there." - Richard Feynman Collections: Hell Creek Microsite | Hell Creek/Lance | Dinosaurs | Sharks | Squamates | Post Oak Creek | North Sulphur River | Lee Creek | Aguja | Permian | Devonian | Triassic | Harding Sandstone Instagram: @thephysicist_tff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyw Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Ok...I’ll try but it’s not easy to explain in writing. It’d be easier if we were in the same room with the fossils in hand.. below is a picture of an very nice Orthacanthus tooth. Look at the shape of the tooth overall, the look of the enamel, the shape and the number of the serrations, if we could see a cross section you’d be able to see different thicknesses. Cover the picture with a piece of paper all except the tip And compare them and soon the differences will become clear... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility of it being a tip from an Orthacanthus or another Xenacanthid tooth. The only way to tell would be to look at the cross-section, shark teeth usually have a very thick layer of enameloid while a vast majority of amniote teeth (synapsids, archosaurs...) have a developed pular cavity within the tooth. Some evidence of its presence would be visible even on the tip. Even in orthodont shark teeth dentine arrangement and the pulpar cavity are completely different, not sure if these Paleozoic Chondryichthyans were osteodont or orthodont. Additionally, it looks like serrations are practically lacking on the very tip, which is +1 for Orthacanthus 1 The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleo.nath Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Anomotodon said: I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility of it being a tip from an Orthacanthus or another Xenacanthid tooth. The only way to tell would be to look at the cross-section, shark teeth usually have a very thick layer of enameloid while a vast majority of amniote teeth (synapsids, archosaurs...) have a developed pular cavity within the tooth. Some evidence of its presence would be visible even on the tip. Even in orthodont shark teeth dentine arrangement and the pulpar cavity are completely different, not sure if these Paleozoic Chondryichthyans were osteodont or orthodont. Additionally, it looks like serrations are practically lacking on the very tip, which is +1 for Orthacanthus Here’s the cross-section of the tooth, it’s not the best quality but it’s the best I can do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 Pretty sure it's an Orthacanthus tip. Very thick enameloid, bilateral symmetry (carinae are not as symmetrical on synapsid teeth), no sign of a pulpar cavity, and, as I said before, decreasing serrations towards the tip. 1 The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyw Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 I disagree. When I blow up the pictures I can see serrations almost to the very tip. And I think I can make out the end of the cavity and thinner enamel.... land the serrations themselves don’t match the ones on any of my Orthacanthus teeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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