PrehistoricWonders Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 Hi guys, I went on a walk on the beach looking for shells, but I ended up finding some shark teeth... one of which is this great white tooth! I was wondering if it is a file tooth, and wanted someone to confirm it’s a great white and a file tooth cause I’ve never seen a GW from NJ or a file GW. TIA 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob-ay Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 niice beach find! still looking for my 1st off the beach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 Just now, Bob-ay said: niice beach find! still looking for my 1st off the beach Thank you! I was excited to find a sand tiger, but this was insane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 What period do you think this is? Pleistocene, Pliocene, or Miocene? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokietech96 Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 What jersey beach? I have a place in Margate and find shark teeth on the beach all the time. Nice tooth. Not sure if the GW is a file tooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, hokietech96 said: What jersey beach? I have a place in Margate and find shark teeth on the beach all the time. Nice tooth. Not sure if the GW is a file tooth Thank you! I can pm you, but I don’t really want to post it in public, I’m not positive you’d want to go either cause I only found four teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokietech96 Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 I was just curious because I live at the shore during the summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 26 minutes ago, hokietech96 said: I was just curious because I live at the shore during the summer. Yeah... I can tell you, but I’d prefer to do it in a pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 @hokietech96do you have an idea who would be able to tell me if it’s a file gw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilnut Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Why do you think this is a file tooth. Is it just the enamel shell with no infilling of dentine and no root? I can't tell for sure from your 2nd picture. My understanding of a shark tooth development is that the enamel forms first, then the interior material and finally the root forms. Is this what you are thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 30 minutes ago, fossilnut said: Why do you think this is a file tooth. Is it just the enamel shell with no infilling of dentine and no root? I can't tell for sure from your 2nd picture. My understanding of a shark tooth development is that the enamel forms first, then the interior material and finally the root forms. Is this what you are thinking? Yes... it’s just the enamel shell, there isn’t any root or dentine. It’s also incredibly light, I don’t know what that means, it’s just an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Here’s a better pic of the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Much more likely to be a preservational factor than file tooth 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 as a non-shark tooth guy, can someone tell me what a file tooth is? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 50 minutes ago, The Jersey Devil said: Much more likely to be a preservational factor than file tooth Could be, but there isn’t any dentine or root at all. 24 minutes ago, jpc said: as a non-shark tooth guy, can someone tell me what a file tooth is? Thanks. The first thing to develop in shark teeth is the enamel, then the dentine and root. file teeth are where there is only the enamel and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 4 hours ago, Familyroadtrip said: The first thing to develop in shark teeth is the enamel, then the dentine and root. I agree. 4 hours ago, Familyroadtrip said: file teeth are where there is only the enamel and nothing else. Who could explain to me why it would not be the remains of a tooth in formation ? In my opinion it could be. Coco ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 The enamel is the first thing to develop in a newly forming tooth but it is also the last thing to dissolve in a corrosive or chemically leaching environment. It looks like some wear on the serrations which wouldn’t happen in a newly forming tooth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I’ve never seen before the term “file tooth” being used to identify a newly forming/developing shark tooth. Can you point me to a reference where this terminology is used? Newly developing teeth are not lost in the normal shark tooth replacement process where an active tooth is replaced by a tooth from behind. Newly developing shark teeth become fossils after the death of the shark. Because sharks shed thousands of active teeth during their lifetimes and only have a limited number of teeth in their jaws at time of death, especially newly developing teeth, newly developing fossil shark teeth are very uncommon compared to the regularly formed teeth. The enamel crowns of these newly developing teeth develop first as stated above. These crowns are rather fragile compared to a regular tooth with palllial dentine and orthodentine (Osteodont shark teeth also have osteodentine) also present in the tooth crowns and don’t as readily survive as a fossil which is another reason that they are so uncommon. The tooth features of the tooth in this post match a newly developing great white tooth (with the exception of the serration wear). However, it is possible that these features are the result of a corrosive or chemically leaching environment because the enamel is also the last thing to dissolve in a corrosive or chemically leaching environment like Eric states above. If you find a tooth like this in-situ, you can look at the other teeth that you are finding in the same formation layer to determine if it was a corrosive or chemically leaching environment. However, if you find the tooth on a beach you can’t make that determination. If found in-situ in a non-reworked layer, I would expect the serrations of the great white developing tooth not to show evidence of wear as this specimen does. You get evidence of wear on an active tooth because of use in feeding. However, this was a beach tooth where water action or other causes could have produced the serration wear. Unfortunately, bottom line, with a beach tooth I don’t think you can ever know for sure whether it was a newly developing tooth. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocene_Mason Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, MarcoSr said: I’ve never seen before the term “file tooth” being used to identify a newly forming/developing shark tooth. Can you point me to a reference where this terminology is used? It’s collectors shorthand methinks. Tooth files are of course rows but when collectors say “file tooth” they mean one of the back rows where teeth are newly formed. Nice find by the way! A rare tooth indeed! NJ has multiple Miocene formations on shore but offshore there are some plio-Pleistocene sediments this is probably derived from. Crazy this guy survived being brought to shore. “...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin Happy hunting, Mason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, MarcoSr said: I’ve never seen before the term “file tooth” being used to identify a newly forming/developing shark tooth. Can you point me to a reference where this terminology is used? Newly developing teeth are not lost in the normal shark tooth replacement process where an active tooth is replaced by a tooth from behind. Newly developing shark teeth become fossils after the death of the shark. Because sharks shed thousands of active teeth during their lifetimes and only have a limited number of teeth in their jaws at time of death, especially newly developing teeth, newly developing fossil shark teeth are very uncommon compared to the regularly formed teeth. The enamel crowns of these newly developing teeth develop first as stated above. These crowns are rather fragile compared to a regular tooth with palllial dentine and orthodentine (Osteodont shark teeth also have osteodentine) also present in the tooth crowns and don’t as readily survive as a fossil which is another reason that they are so uncommon. The tooth features of the tooth in this post match a newly developing great white tooth (with the exception of the serration wear). However, it is possible that these features are the result of a corrosive or chemically leaching environment because the enamel is also the last thing to dissolve in a corrosive or chemically leaching environment like Eric states above. If you find a tooth like this in-situ, you can look at the other teeth that you are finding in the same formation layer to determine if it was a corrosive or chemically leaching environment. However, if you find the tooth on a beach you can’t make that determination. If found in-situ in a non-reworked layer, I would expect the serrations of the great white developing tooth not to show evidence of wear as this specimen does. You get evidence of wear on an active tooth because of use in feeding. However, this was a beach tooth where water action or other causes could have produced the serration wear. Unfortunately, bottom line, with a beach tooth I don’t think you can ever know for sure whether it was a newly developing tooth. Marco Sr. I got the term from @HoppeHunting, and that was the only time I’d seen a tooth like that. Although it means less, with them being black finds... it was the only tour th like this that I found... I also found a big galeocerdo, two sand tigers and a ray barb. The serrations throw me off a little bit, but since it was a beach find, that also means less. I plan on asking David Paris at the NJ natural history museum, because I feel like if anyone could tell, it would be him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 5 hours ago, Al Dente said: The enamel is the first thing to develop in a newly forming tooth but it is also the last thing to dissolve in a corrosive or chemically leaching environment. It looks like some wear on the serrations which wouldn’t happen in a newly forming tooth. Yes... I’m torn because it could a tooth that was super close to just being destroyed by the ocean, or it could be a file tooth, I’m not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said: It’s collectors shorthand methinks. Tooth files are of course rows but when collectors say “file tooth” they mean one of the back rows where teeth are newly formed. Nice find by the way! A rare tooth indeed! NJ has multiple Miocene formations on shore but offshore there are some plio-Pleistocene sediments this is probably derived from. Crazy this guy survived being brought to shore. Yup! thank you! Probably my brothers rarest personal find! I’m really hoping it’s Miocene or Pliocene cause I’ve always dreamt of finding a meg in NJ, weird I know, but still accurate, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocene_Mason Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 36 minutes ago, Familyroadtrip said: Yup! thank you! Probably my brothers rarest personal find! I’m really hoping it’s Miocene or Pliocene cause I’ve always dreamt of finding a meg in NJ, weird I know, but still accurate, lol! I’m not sure about megs, but many chubs have been found there! Problem is it’s hard to get to the formations, and they are really only productive in lag layers. Thus they tend to get a little beat up. “...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin Happy hunting, Mason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrehistoricWonders Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Just now, WhodamanHD said: I’m not sure about megs, but many chubs have been found there! Problem is it’s hard to get to the formations, and they are really only productive in lag layers. Thus they tend to get a little beat up. Yeah... I’m not expecting to find one, but I would LOVE to find one! I don’t really care if it’s whole, I just want to find one! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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