Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 As I live relatively close to Carmel Valley, I have recently been researching into collecting fossils there, especially the Pinnixa pea crabs.The main collecting information I have heard from several different sources is to “Collect along Carmel Valley road road cuts and the surround road cuts. Look for the whitish shale and collect there.” However, I am concerned about the legality of this. Even though many people have gone collecting there, I believe the road to be public land, and California’s laws say that no collecting is allowed on public land. I know that in some fossiliferous areas in the US there are exceptions to this rule (such as Millard Country Utah,) and want to make sure it is legal to collect there before I go. If it is illegal to collect along there, I would appreciate any legal sites/ private land owners to contact, if some members would be willing to share them. (Of course, over PM unless it is already a very well known site, such as the Carmel Valley road road cuts.) It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas.Dodson Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 I find the California legislation unusual. It's covered under chapter 1.7 of the Public Resources Code and for the chapter defines state lands: "As used in this chapter, “state lands” means lands owned by, or under the jurisdiction of, the state or any state agency. It does not include lands owned by, or under the jurisdiction of a city, county, or district, or fire trails under the jurisdiction of the Division of Forestry in the Department of Conservation." However, in the section pertaining specifically to public fossil locations it defines "(b)As used in this section, “public lands” means lands owned by, or under the jurisdiction of, the state, or any city, county, district, authority, or public corporation, or any agency thereof." This was amended in 1992 so perhaps they found it simpler to change the meaning to restrict fossil collecting. I also find the way they way they phrased the section odd (listing specifically vertebrate paleontology but then at the end of the section tacking on any other paleontological site) but maybe this has to do with the amendment. Anyway, your interpretation appears to be correct but the PRC does state that you can collect with the express permission of the agency in charge of the land so if you're willing to contact landowners you might as well also contact the city/county officials in charge of city and county roads as you may be able to get permission from them. I suppose you could contact the agency that manages state roads as well but that seems like there will be more red tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, Thomas.Dodson said: Anyway, your interpretation appears to be correct but the PRC does state that you can collect with the express permission of the agency in charge of the land so if you're willing to contact landowners you might as well also contact the city/county officials in charge of city and county roads as you may be able to get permission from them. I suppose you could contact the agency that manages state roads as well but that seems like there will be more red tape. I always interpreted it as the permits acquired by professional paleontologists, in which all specimens go to a specific museum or university. I will look in to amateur versions. However, I have found California to be one of the stricter states in terms of fossil laws and permissions. However, I will look further in to this. Do any of the members who have collected at the site know more? @siteseer @KOI @OwlEyes ? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas.Dodson Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said: I always interpreted it as the permits acquired by professional paleontologists, in which all specimens go to a specific museum or university. Nah, not in this case. That is how permits work in some places but there isn't anything of that sort in the PRC. A unified permit wouldn't work in this case because you're talking hundreds or thousands of different "agencies" that manage and own the various roads. Every city that owns a road can manage it differently, every county, district, etc... You may find some of them only willing to give you permission if you're university/state affiliated or the like but the legislation is clear that ultimately it is up to the specific agency who to grant permission to. 17 minutes ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said: However, I have found California to be one of the stricter states in terms of fossil laws and permissions. That's true. A lot of states don't mind you collecting non-significant/non vertebrate material on most state-owned land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 I just found this old thread saying that road cuts ARE legal as long as they aren’t highways and you stay far enough away from the road. Is this true then? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas.Dodson Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said: I just found this old thread saying that road cuts ARE legal as long as they aren’t highways and you stay far enough away from the road. Is this true then? I don't see any explanations from a California point of view in that thread. It seems like everyone was talking from viewpoints of various other places which vary. At any rate, to me the regulation is clear that it wouldn't be allowed without permission but it is possible it is otherwise not enforced or ignored. I can't give you any advice on that. I can only say that the definition under the Code seems clear. Pub. Res. Code §5097.5. (a)No person shall knowingly and willfully excavate upon, or remove, destroy, injure, or deface, any historic or prehistoric ruins, burial grounds, archaeological or vertebrate paleontological site, including fossilized footprints, inscriptions made by human agency, rock art, or any other archaeological, paleontological or historical feature, situated on public lands, except with the express permission of the public agency having jurisdiction over the lands. Violation of this section is a misdemeanor. (b)As used in this section, “public lands” means lands owned by, or under the jurisdiction of, the state, or any city, county, district, authority, or public corporation, or any agency thereof. I've seen poorly worded/ambiguous/confusing legislation but frankly this one seems to the point. In short you'd be required to obtain permission from the agency in charge of the particular road/land. This could be a city, a county, or the state itself, it varies. As I mentioned before who the particular agency gives permission to is up to them. I'd guess as you get more local the chances of getting permission as an amateur collector would increase since there are less other regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Overall, I think I’ll leave the site alone. Although local news sites and many amateur fossil hunting resources say that it’s a good fossil hunting locality, National law prohibits it. Even though I probably wouldn’t get in trouble (a lot of people visit the site and don’t,) I don’t want to break the law. I also don’t think landowners and road agencies would give me access, due to the fact that I am younger than 18, and that they have MANY more issues they wish to deal with concerning Covid 19 and all the crazy things that are going on. I’ve had the same conclusion with every other site in the local are that I have heard of (Point Loma, Lawrence Canyon and surrounding area, Tecolote Canyon, Sunset Cliffs Natural Park, Pacific Beach, Ocean Beach tide pools , etc.) Still, someday I’ll find a site! 1 It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Years ago (as in around 1991), I collected at least two sites with a UC Berkeley student group led by Dr. Jere Lipps so I know those spots are okay. I have scouted sites with a friend around Carmel Valley and elsewhere. I have never been stopped or even been questioned by any member of law enforcement. Of course, I don't try to chop out of the sides of cliffs and I don't venture up private roads and I don't leave any trash. I haven't gone near anywhere that is posted, "No Trespassing." I used to go out there once or twice a year, going to the Monterey County gem/mineral show some years. These days, I hardly ever go out there (and it's not because I'm on the lam). Keep in mind there are sites for those crabs from as far south as Ventura County (Bruno Benson knew sites for those in his area and I saw a few of them) and at least as far north as Marin County. You need to do some research when libraries are open again. You might find some info online but I prefer to actually go to the library. For fossils that often means a university library like Stanford or UC Berkeley. If you know what you are looking for, and you go looking, you will generally find it or you will find out why you can't find it but you might learn about something else just as interesting. Yeah, people used to collect Pacific Beach all the time but for some reason the lifeguards didn't like it. They started telling people not to pick anything up in the late 80's, I think. It's not really worth the trip from San Diego to Carmel Valley. I never find a lot of crabs on any trip. If I were you, I'd join a club like the Southern California Paleo Society and go where they go before going off on my own. A friend told me there are a lot of old people in the club. Always listen to old people. They have been where you are (and if you are polite, some of them will help you and even give you specimens and publications). Always dig with a friend in case of an emergency and always bring extra food and water in case of a vehicle problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 I just realized that there are multiple Carmel Valleys, and the one thirty minutes away from me is not the one with the crabs! I’m thinking about joining the SCPS, but they’re also quite a drive away. However, I’ll definitely join them if they do a trip in to my area! It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said: I just realized that there are multiple Carmel Valleys, and the one thirty minutes away from me is not the one with the crabs! I’m thinking about joining the SCPS, but they’re also quite a drive away. However, I’ll definitely join them if they do a trip in to my area! Yeah, the Carmel Valley with the crabs is near Monterey. A couple of times, I got in a trip to the Aquarium while out there as well. I was even farther away from SCPS but joined just to get the Bulletin. I wish you could have met Father Floyd Jenkins, paleontologist extraordinaire and biology professor at Loyola Marymount in L.A.. He edited the SCPS Bulletin in the 80's. I learned a lot from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecosmilia Trichitoma Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 What’s in the bulletin? Does it mention sites and site finding info? It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 On 1/26/2021 at 3:51 PM, Thecosmilia Trichitoma said: What’s in the bulletin? Does it mention sites and site finding info? It wasn't a big document - maybe 6 or 8 pages. Some of it was reprinted paleo articles. Some of it was member content. Someone would discuss the difference between a modern sand dollar species and its Pliocene relative, for instance. I wrote my first book review for the Bulletin. There would be a trip report as well. I believe there were directions to the site for the next trip in it. I still have a few back issues somewhere. I'll have to dig into layers of paperwork to check. Also, when you were a member, you could send away for a list of localities the club collected at. It's been years since I was a member so I don't know if they still have the same editor. I was still keeping up with the club until a few years ago when the USGS library shut down. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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