Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Hi folks! This is my first fossil find. I was so excited that it might be a dinosaur tail bone, but after looking at a bunch of photos online it seems to certainly be cetacean. But it's so tall... Most vertebrae seem so squat and this one is rather lanky. It's just a bit bigger than a standard Pepsi can. It definitely "clinks" like a rock rather than bone but is very porous, has taken days to get the water out of it. I assume that channel is for the spinal cord, it's a bit over a half inch wide inside the channel. Here's two photos, dorsal and ventral; I could post more if you like. It was found washing onto shore after a storm brewed up some deep water shells from a channel between Gasparilla and Little Gasparilla Island in Florida (outside the Tampa Bay area). Looking forward to hearing what part of who's body this came from, thank you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Thoracic and upper lumbar verts can be longer: Image from HERE @Boesse 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 nice diagram. So the vertebrae look boxy in your picture, however, this one is about 2 and a half inches on the sides, but almost 5 inches long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Boxy is relative. This was just to show that they are different depending on position in the column. I've tagged our cetacean expert to help with an ID. Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Cool! Thank you so much! I really appreciate it. I'm geeking out looking at dolphin ancestors now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megalodoodle Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Nice fossilized coke can ya got there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 "no coke, just Pepsi" cheeburger,cheeburger,cheeburger,cheeburger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I'll go for Dr.Pepper any day. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Nice find! Certainly a very interesting piece. Conservation reminds of neogene bones I've seen, so could be either Miocene or Pliocene. As such, @Shellseeker might also be able to help out on this, pending Boesse's verdict. As you said it took multiple days to get the sea water out, have you properly desalinated the bone? Otherwise, with this high level of porosity it seems only reasonable to assume it sucked up a lot of salts, which will speed up erosion of the bone, and make it brittle, over time. 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahnmut Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Hello and welcome to the forum. Nice find! Although many cetacean vertebrae (centra, like the one you found, missing its appendages) are shorter than this, the shape is cetacean, as you concluded. I think it is to long for Orca or Minke whale, it is to big for another dolphin and to small for the big baleen whales and Spermwhale. Beaked Whales among the surviving species have elongate vertebrae. But considering its age, one of the experts on the forum will know more about the fossil species. There is plenty of diversity. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/65080-baleno-recreation/&page=3 Aloha, J 3 Try to learn something about everything and everything about something Thomas Henry Huxley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Oh my gosh, I did not know about desalination, I will try to resoak it, hopefully the inside is still moist. Thanks for the heads up PPW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Magda Kettlestorm said: Oh my gosh, I did not know about desalination, I will try to resoak it, hopefully the inside is still moist. Thanks for the heads up PPW! No worries! And desalination can be done at any stage in a fossil's (or artefact's) life. In fact, you might even need to redo it for some pieces if not fully or properly done the first time around. Just beware that if the piece to be desalinated is brittle already, immersion in water should be very gradual: waves can damage the object, but so can air escaping from inside it. Moisture remaining in the vertebra may help temper shock of immersion when lowering the fossil into a "bath", but is not a necessary precondition. The higher the saline content, however, and the less ambient salt there is in the air (i.e., there'll be more salt in the air in places right next to the sea and thus the salts from within the object will be attracted by the air to a lesser extent - which is what causes the eventual decay) the more often you'll need to change the "bath". A "bath" can be any container of pure, unchlorinated fresh water with sufficient volume to fully and equally submerge your specimen in. There are some excellent guides on TFF that can explain all the intricacies to you (such as the one here), but the long and short of it is that you'll need to give the specimen multiple subsequent baths, so that the surrounding water can extract the salt. For best results, leave the baths to stand for extended amounts of time, and use demineralised or distilled water for the last couple of baths to ensure all salts have been removed. If you want to make extra sure the salt content is lowered satisfactorily, you can use a resistance meter. 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Ok, I have discovered the infamous toilet method... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Eek, ok, I will get some better water today at the store unless there's some rainwater outside. There was a steady stream of bubbles coming out. should I just leave it since I fully submerged it before getting your instructions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 19 minutes ago, Magda Kettlestorm said: Ok, I have discovered the infamous toilet method... 13 minutes ago, Magda Kettlestorm said: Eek, ok, I will get some better water today at the store unless there's some rainwater outside. There was a steady stream of bubbles coming out. should I just leave it since I fully submerged it before getting your instructions? Toilet water should do fine - assuming it's not chlorinated (chloride can also have a brittling effect on bone). The toilet bowl should refill slowly enough, I think. And once the fossil has filled up with water entirely again, there should be less bubbles: the bubbles are just the air being pushed out of the fossil by the water. However, since you say the bone is brittle, keep an eye on it while it's bubbling to ensure no pieces break off of your fossil. If you want to be entirely sure, it would probably be best to remove the fossil from the water partially, and very gradually submerge it again, keeping the bubbles to a minimum. Put differently: the more bubbles, the greater the risk of damage. But with the fossil being so porous, it might take a very long time to submerge properly. Edit: Another reason why I'm personally not in favour of the toilet method is that in flushing the water down the toilet, you may inadvertently also flush away small bits of the fossil itself. Now these bits will be too small to be of any value re-attaching, but they are indicative of how your fossil is doing over the process of desalination. 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 The city does chlorinate the water, but the tap water is measuring in at 0.5ppm, according to their annual reports. Do you think that the low level of chlorine in ,y my tap water will be a problem? The piece does not seem too brittle but is a bit hollowed out, so who knows what it's like on the inside. It's like something tiny burrowed into the side of it. Thanks again for the heads up on desalination, I'm glad I found out about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, Magda Kettlestorm said: The city does chlorinate the water, but the tap water is measuring in at 0.5ppm, according to their annual reports. Do you think that the low level of chlorine in ,y my tap water will be a problem? The piece does not seem too brittle but is a bit hollowed out, so who knows what it's like on the inside. It's like something tiny burrowed into the side of it. Thanks again for the heads up on desalination, I'm glad I found out about this. No problem, glad to help! Since you're new here and you mentioned it took a long time to drain, I guessed you might not have taken the steps to desalinate If the brittleness you first described is based on the tiny holes on the inside of the bone then that's usual: this is just part of the internal bone-structure and, though a bit brittle at times, not necessarily a preservation issue. The outer layer of the bone, the cortex, is what keeps the bone together and protects the cancellous bone inside. In your specimen the cortex appears in quite a good condition, so that I wouldn't think you have too much to worry about. However, once the cancellous bone inside the cortex decays, you'll be left with an empty shell that'll have lost most of it's support. So, in that respect, it's important to take good care of the cancellous bone inside. As to the chloride: the amounts of chloride in the water are probably not particularly harmful, but you intend to immerse the fossil for quite a while. In general, in chemistry, the less of a reagent you have, the slower the reaction. But if left for a long time, the effect will still be cumulative. With chloride being acidic, I think the same principles would apply as if you were to do an acid-preparation: short-term exposure should be okay, but will need to be followed by soaking in one or more baths of clean water for at least the equal duration (if not double) of immersion in acid for the acid to extract. Since we're already trying to extract the salt - which also contains chloride - I think it makes more sense to use cleaner water for desalination. However, I also don't think there's too much harm in it either, seeing as we're just trying to build up an equilibrium in salt content - including chloride - between the inside of the fossil and the water that surrounds it. It'll just take somewhat longer for the fossil to be properly desalinated. And it'll be even more important to finish the process with sufficient baths of demineralised (and otherwise distilled) water. 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Welcome to TFF, It is a great place with warm and friendly people and you can follow around the world in photos. Plus you live in California !!! I hear that there are a few fantastic fossils in your part of the world.. Some on this forum know where you can find them!!! Here is one one of my threads. I usually find my whale verts on dry land OR in the Peace River.... The one below was protected below 20 feet of mud, sand, clay, and not so far from where you found yours.... The forum keeps history of posts. You can see if you go to the home page and search for "Whale". You will get Verts and other bones, and teeth, and earbones!!! I love the earbones The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaspawn Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Welcome to the forum, and what an awesome first find! I have a fondness for the aesthetic of fossil vertebrae, and that looks like a really nice intact one. I would like to excitedly agree that it's probably a whale, but I don't know much yet, I'm still very new to IDing. As for desalination, I have found many things in the North Sea, a few deteriorating even as I picked them up, and one in particular I had to return because it was just so crumbly and fragile and I had no means of storing or preserving it. Most things I've soaked in tapwater for three rinses, and then allowed to dry out gradually on a towel under my bed because I also read somewhere that you don't want to expose fossils to too much sunlight, or dry them too quickly. Despite surviving so long, they're pretty fragile. That said, some of these I've had for a few years now and nothing bad has happened, but maybe it takes longer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 11 hours ago, Ludwigia said: I'll go for Dr.Pepper any day. Naturally ... a Pepper for the Prepper! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 40 minutes ago, piranha said: Naturally ... a Pepper for the Prepper! 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted February 6, 2021 Share Posted February 6, 2021 These elongate lumbar vertebrae are typical of Zarhachis and are expected to be present in close relatives like Pomatodelphis, and similarly developed in the squalodelphinid Araeodelphis but not others (e.g. Phocageneus). This condition is unknown in kenteriodontids and eurhinodelphinids (the most commonly discovered mid Miocene odontocetes at Calvert Cliffs). 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magda Kettlestorm Posted February 6, 2021 Author Share Posted February 6, 2021 Hello Boesse, That's fabulous information. Thank you so much for weighing in; if you have any reading resources you'd like to recommend, let me know. Just the mention of the Miocene has made me so happy, I feel so privileged to have found a piece of history. That may sound weird coming from a layman. I never studied Paleontology, but one of my favorite classes in college was Evolutionary Biology, so I'm thrilled. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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