Seal Canine

[Shellseeker]

I went out hunting today in the Peace River and found some very nice fossils, which were unusual for the Peace River. then this... A 54 mm Canine.

I showed it to a couple of people, who both responded "likely seal".

 

I searched the internet for fossil seal canines. Take a look at the enamel tip. It is distinctive!

However, all the fossils identified as Seal Canines have tips not remotely similar to the one I found.  What am I missing ?

 

Also , I thought about the age of this fossil. Just by sea level measurements over the last 20 million years, we know that there has been no salt water over upper Bone Valley for approximately 3 mya... that is the Pliocene.

 

Callophoca obscura is included in the "Palmetto fauna list" dated 4.5-5 mya as early Pliocene.

 

So,  Is this a seal tooth? Can we determine lower jaw , left or right.. Are there other possible candidates in the Florida fossil record besides Callophoca obscura ? Are there other seal candidates in Southeast US?

 

I love a good mystery. @digit @Harry Pristis @Boesse

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Al Dente]

Jack- This is really odd looking. Is there enamel on it? This view doesn’t look much like a tooth but I don’t know what it could be.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

47 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

Jack- This is really odd looking. Is there enamel on it? This view doesn’t look much like a tooth but I don’t know what it could be.

 

Thanks for the response.  One of the 2 individuals who said "likely seal"  sent me these photos. His tooth is also slightly over 2 inches and came from a clay layer.  I had not questioned whether I had a tooth. It was exposed to some elements of the Peace River for 4+ myas and many of the shark teeth I find are this worn and discolored.

 

But look at it this way.. look at the 2nd photo below. I would take a specific identification of that tooth.. including the odd edges in the enamel.

Curiosity :  Do you have Callophoca obscura  fossil teeth in North Carolina?

 

[digit]

I'm with @Al Dente on this one in that I'm not convinced that is it tooth with enamel on the tip. Can't think of what other bone could be a mimic such as this but I think we need to explore the possibilities before zeroing in on seal species. I agree with Jack though that enigmatic finds that generate a good discussion are always a reason to celebrate.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Harry Pristis]

  It certainly is a canine tooth.  It has a wear facet that's been further worn by river action.  I'd call it an upper canine based on general mammal form, though I can't say it's seal or not -- I don't recognize the tooth which leaves seal a possibility in my mind.

  I do get a bit squeamish when Jack ascribes an age to the tooth.  All these Peace River teeth are "float" -- that is, they are found out of any context which would allow dating more reliable than "Mio-Pliocene."  Biochronological dating is iffy when you don't have an ID of the fossil. 

[sharkdoctor]

Your posts never fail to interest!

Is it possible that there is a build up of river tannins and "biofilm" obscuring the underlying fossil? We get that in Virginia and North Carolina lot and the film of tannins and algae can get massive. I have a couple of teeth I found in the Meherrin that have a tannin coating of ~1/8".

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

I don't understand, sharkdoctor -- are we talking about the same images?  The enamel on the crown looks to me like it has been thinned by river abrasion.  No doubt,  the dentine of the root has been worn as well.  Algae is not a typical problem with Peace River teeth, most of which remain sunless until excavated.  Nor are iron oxides a problem deposit on Peace River teeth (as it can be in some Florida rivers).

 

    

[Shellseeker]

44 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

I do get a bit squeamish when Jack ascribes an age to the tooth.  All these Peace River teeth are "float" -- that is, they are found out of context which would allow dating more reliable than "Mio-Pliocene."  Biochronological dating is iffy when you don't have an ID of the fossil. 

Harry,

I agree with this.  I also get squeamish and not just a little. I do not know what this tooth is... and when we are done with this thread, it might be IDed as seal but if not, it will be unknown for a while longer.

 

I have been "working" a theory and I am very curious on whether you detect a fatal flaw in my thinking.

There are plenty of Historical Sea Level charts and they are relatively consistent within some very narrow boundaries.  Here is one of charts for the last 5 million years.  I just grabbed this one off the internet and have used others previously.

1) The point of this chart is that over the last 5 million years, sea level has been no higher than 30 meters above the current sea level.

2) Fort Meade Florida is 43 meters above sea level.

3) Any mammal or fish,  which depends on salt water, has been nowhere near Fort Meade for the last 3 million years.

 

Let me leave it there and ask what you think of the idea...  Thanks

 

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, sharkdoctor said:

Your posts never fail to interest!

Is it possible that there is a build up of river tannins and "biofilm" obscuring the underlying fossil? We get that in Virginia and North Carolina lot and the film of tannins and algae can get massive. I have a couple of teeth I found in the Meherrin that have a tannin coating of ~1/8".

Thanks,  I think a lot about why a treasured fossil is the way it is  before I make a post.  Then I am really motivated to make threads so interesting to enhance my understanding of that fossil. 

Here is a photo of my find today and my friend's find of a very similar tooth that he also found in the Peace River years back.

I'd rather have his. It is downright gorgeous.  Look at the patina in the enamel. All of that has been water eroded from my tooth , even the ridge between the enamel and the root.  All those other factors are secondary to water erosion over a couple of million years.

My friends tooth must have been protected, usually in mud or better still clay. I have some teeth that were protected in a layer of clay... just laying there for millions of years

[Al Dente]

6 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

1) The point of this chart is that over the last 5 million years, sea level has been no higher than 30 meters above the current sea level.

2) Fort Meade Florida is 43 meters above sea level.

3) Any mammal or fish,  which depends on salt water, has been nowhere near Fort Meade for the last 3 million years.

30 meters of global sea level rising and falling doesn’t always translate to 30 meters of relative regional rise and fall. Land surfaces also rise and fall depending on sediment loading and unloading. Sediment layers in parts of Florida can be over 2 miles thick in some areas. It is unlikely that these areas were ever two miles below sea level during the time of deposition. The land sinks as sediment accumulates. Other factors can cause land to rise and fall too.

[Mahnmut]

As Al Dente said.

Nowadays many coastal cities sink even faster than sea level rises because cities are heavy and use up their cushion of groundwater fast. (not your question, but another example of relative sea level change).

On the fossil: although there is no shiny enamel left, to me it looks consistent with slightly eroded teeth.

Cheers!

J

Edited June 8, 2021 by Mahnmut
additional thought

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Al Dente said:

30 meters of global sea level rising and falling doesn’t always translate to 30 meters of relative regional rise and fall. Land surfaces also rise and fall depending on sediment loading and unloading. Sediment layers in parts of Florida can be over 2 miles thick in some areas. It is unlikely that these areas were ever two miles below sea level during the time of deposition. The land sinks as sediment accumulates. Other factors can cause land to rise and fall too.

Seems like a very reasonable possibility. I will have to think about it. At a young age, my Mother read Alice in Wonderland to myself and siblings. It may have caused me to consider impossible things before breakfast.

 

[Boesse]

1) Agree that this is very clearly a carnivoran canine - though I'm always skeptical of genus and even family level identifications of isolated canines. A recent pairing of news articles had a fossil canine from a southeastern fossil site recently identified as an american lion (Panthera atrox) by one paleontologist; when I was interviewed by a journalist on the find I expressed caution, suggested another specialist, who reidentified it as a short faced bear canine (Arctodus simus).

 

2) Seal is certainly a possibility, and in Jack's defense seal canines often are quite straight and have a more strongly recurved (but sort of short) crown relative to terrestrial carnivores, but it's a bit sketchy. Here's "Sarcodectes magnus", a specimen previously assigned to Callophoca, from the Lee Creek Mine:

 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Boesse said:

1) Agree that this is very clearly a carnivoran canine - though I'm always skeptical of genus and even family level identifications of isolated canines. A recent pairing of news articles had a fossil canine from a southeastern fossil site recently identified as an american lion (Panthera atrox) by one paleontologist; when I was interviewed by a journalist on the find I expressed caution, suggested another specialist, who reidentified it as a short faced bear canine (Arctodus simus).

 

2) Seal is certainly a possibility, and in Jack's defense seal canines often are quite straight and have a more strongly recurved (but sort of short) crown relative to terrestrial carnivores, but it's a bit sketchy. Here's "Sarcodectes magnus", a specimen previously assigned to Callophoca, from the Lee Creek Mine:

 

Thanks Bobby,

Your responses are always insightful and grounding..

Just got off the phone with a friend who had a photo of a Callophoca partial jaw and canine in a fossil book.. from Lee Creek Mine possibly donated to the Smithsonian.

I will get a photo and compare..

 

I am really not trying to force this tooth to be seal. I am doing what I normally do... trying to ID a find, knocking on every door, looking for any similarities. before I categorize it as "Unknown, possible marine mammal"