turtlesteve Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 So I had a chance to visit the Mace Brown museum finally. Absolutely fantastic museum, and the kids loved it. Wonderful variety of fossils and especially local whale / dolphin material. But I did see one fossil that perplexed me. Unfortunately I only got one picture as the kids were running absolutely wild on me.  So I did a double take on this one. Because it's clearly NOT Terrapene sp. or even the same family. Looks like Testudinidae to me. There is a nice paper on Pleistocene turtles and tortoises found at this location - Turtles (Reptilia : Testudines) of the Ardis local fauna late Pleistocene (Rancholabrean) of South Carolina - that cites Hesperotestudo crassiscutata and Gopherus sp. from SC, but I am really thinking neither of those looks right. Maybe this is Hesperotestudo incisa? Any thoughts? Maybe @Boesse would know more about this fossil? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 For comparison: 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 I recall someone providing an alternate identification for that specimen at one point, but they didn't bother writing it down (mentioned it in passing). The core of our collection was assembled from a private collection (this specimen included, and did not really have a curator until about a year and a half ago. Even then, my background of course is in marine vertebrates, and our curator's background is in Cretaceous dinos & footprints - so we really do need someone knowledgeable in turtles (marine and terrestrial) to help with identifications. We have loads of specimens with presumed IDs and plenty of labels to update. What precludes this from being T. c. putnami? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) Ehret, Dana & Bourque, Jason & Hulbert, Richard. (2013). Terrapene putnami Hay, 1906 (Testudines, EMYDIDAE): replacement of the holotype by designation of a neotype. Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature. 70: 193-198. Edited July 23, 2021 by abyssunder 1 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtlesteve Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Boesse said: I recall someone providing an alternate identification for that specimen at one point, but they didn't bother writing it down (mentioned it in passing). The core of our collection was assembled from a private collection (this specimen included, and did not really have a curator until about a year and a half ago. Even then, my background of course is in marine vertebrates, and our curator's background is in Cretaceous dinos & footprints - so we really do need someone knowledgeable in turtles (marine and terrestrial) to help with identifications. We have loads of specimens with presumed IDs and plenty of labels to update. What precludes this from being T. c. putnami? What caught my eye was: - The bridge is well developed and solid, T.c. Putnami has a hinged plastron like extant Terrapene. - Very thick epiplastron typical of tortoises - Shape and size of cervical scute, marginal scutes and associated bones (nuchal, peripherals) Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 @turtlesteve Thanks - I recall the thickened epiplastron and possible lack of a hinge as features pointed out before... but again, a precise alternate ID was not provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Hi Steve, I remember our trip to the Mace museum a couple years back and particularly enjoyed the marine mammal stuff they had at the time as well. I havent had the chance to go thru the nuchals I have and get some specific help to narrow them down but I have some very similar that were tentatively in the Hesperotestudo/Gopherus bucket. I sent a msg off to see if a specific ID can be gleaned without additional photos or measurements. If I hear back I'll post for you all. Neat specimen! Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turtlesteve Posted July 25, 2021 Author Share Posted July 25, 2021 Thanks everyone who responded. The presence of two (or more) tortoises in SC during the Pleistocene is interesting, and I’m really curious what this one turns out to be. I also wonder how far north these tortoises ranged, as they must have tolerated cold winters and hard frosts. I’ve not personally found much tortoise material on my collecting trips in SC, and the few small pieces I have found would not be identifiable. The best I have done was to find a couple of associated bits of a sea turtle. I’d love to find a whole one (or a significant portion) one day. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 Gopher tortoise range into SC today but the carapace of this turtle is too dome shaped for a gopher tortoise. There is a paper published on the Pleistocene turtles of Giant Cement Quarry. The only tortoise in that paper is the giant tortoise. I would suggest this is a juvenile giant tortoise but it looks like there are too many growth lines for it to be a juvenile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Al Dente said: Gopher tortoise range into SC today but the carapace of this turtle is too dome shaped for a gopher tortoise. There is a paper published on the Pleistocene turtles of Giant Cement Quarry. The only tortoise in that paper is the giant tortoise. I would suggest this is a juvenile giant tortoise but it looks like there are too many growth lines for it to be a juvenile. I agree the gopher tortoise has a lower profile. Here's one that was under my work vehicle Friday! Sorry I dont have a scale...about a foot+ long. I still have a question as to whether its now Hesperotestudo or Caudochelys for the genus as I've seen Caudochelys mentioned for the giant tortoise in other references. Hulbert has a paper describing Pleistocene vertebrates from nearby Georgia lists 3 tortoises, H. crassiscutata, H. incisa and Gopherus polyphemus. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233089334_New_Pleistocene_Rancholabrean_vertebrate_faunas_from_coastal_Georgia New Pleistocene (Rancholabrean) Vertebrate Faunas from Coastal Georgia Author(s): Richard C. Hulbert, Jr. and Ann E. Pratt Source: Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, Vol. 18, No. 2 (Jun. 15, 1998), pp. 412-429 Hopefully more details for you next week... Regards, Chris Edited July 25, 2021 by Plantguy spelling edits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 On 7/23/2021 at 1:50 AM, Boesse said: so we really do need someone knowledgeable in turtles (marine and terrestrial) to help with identifications. I know people. PM Sent. Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 I heard Jim Knight retired some time ago but maybe someone in SC still knows how to reach him. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 Hi All. Jason Bourque up at UF/Florida Museum who has published a number of turtle articles graciously replied and confirmed its tortoise. He shared that its hard to say which taxon without looking at it closer and knowing the scale, but looks very similar to their incisa there in the collection and given the age, incisa is a best guess. I was poking around some more and here's a link/image to the neat specimen they have on display from the Haile Quarry, Alachua County, Florida. https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/100years/dwarf-tortoise/ Regards, Chris 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Thanks for the help y'all! Sounds like this might be a lot more interesting than a box turtle. I haven't seen Jason in a few years, so it's more than a good excuse to email him with some nice photos and scale. Since there's so much interest in this specimen, I will report back once I've gotten a more informed answer from Jason. Cheers - Bobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now