Shellseeker Posted July 30, 2021 Share Posted July 30, 2021 When I first saw this tooth, I was thinking Allodesmus, maybe seal. But then I noted the hollow root. Certainly not croc/gator, so whale ? Do Dolphins have hollow roots? The ones I have found have closed roots. If whale or dolphin, which one? Tooth is about 2.6 inches long. Usual suspects: @Boesse, @ynot @siteseer Comments on open versus closed roots in marine mammals appreciated. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted July 31, 2021 Share Posted July 31, 2021 My vote is for seal 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted July 31, 2021 Author Share Posted July 31, 2021 20 minutes ago, hemipristis said: My vote is for seal Agree, but I have and have seen seal teeth. All those that I have seen have closed roots. Can a seal tooth have an open root ? Is this one just broken ? The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted July 31, 2021 Author Share Posted July 31, 2021 @hemipristis I have had some time to think about this.... Found a Seal tooth from Aurora for sale. Created this comparison.... The biggest difference is the closed versus open root.. Maybe this one from STH is just broken. I am becoming a believer. This tooth has an opposing tooth to rub against. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 9 hours ago, Shellseeker said: @hemipristis I have had some time to think about this.... Found a Seal tooth from Aurora for sale. Created this comparison.... The biggest difference is the closed versus open root.. Maybe this one from STH is just broken. I am becoming a believer. This tooth has an opposing tooth to rub against. I’ll take a look at mine from LC and Calvert. I’m curious now 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boesse Posted August 1, 2021 Share Posted August 1, 2021 This looks like a juvenile Allodesmus canine. All mammal teeth go through a stage where the root is open during early growth, sometimes as an adult the root stays open like this, but in most, the pulp cavity closes during adulthood. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted August 1, 2021 Author Share Posted August 1, 2021 3 hours ago, Boesse said: This looks like a juvenile Allodesmus canine. All mammal teeth go through a stage where the root is open during early growth, sometimes as an adult the root stays open like this, but in most, the pulp cavity closes during adulthood. Thanks Bobby, I had been reading your blogs , downloading your papers, and found that interesting photo from Mitchell's 1966 SVP Pamphlet: Although smaller , I could see the similarities of my tooth to teeth on upper left. Recently, a group of fossil hunters found a Kogiopsis jaw with teeth. The video is on Youtube and painful to watch as they yanked the teeth out of the jaw, because they could not raise the fragile jaw with the teeth.. I realized my open rooted Kogiopsis teeth were not broken but naturally open rooted. I wanted to understand why and why not open roots in whales. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 (edited) Hi Jack, I'm late. As always, Bobby has it covered. I would just add that seals aren't known from the STH Bonebed. Allodesmus is neither a seal, a sea lion, nor a walrus in the sense that it isn't directly related to anything living today. It is in a separate group of pinnipeds that died out in the late Miocene. If we could see one alive, it might have resembled an elephant seal and we wouldn't have noticed a difference unless it had different coloring or moved differently. I think Bobby would catch on to something different about it, though. Anyway, that's a nice piece. Allodesmus canines are almost always found broken and worn. Jess Edited August 2, 2021 by siteseer additional word for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 1 hour ago, siteseer said: Hi Jack, I'm late. As always, Bobby has it covered. I would just add that seals aren't known from the STH Bonebed. Allodesmus is neither a seal, a sea lion, nor a walrus in the sense that it isn't directly related to anything living today. It is in a separate group of pinnipeds that died out in the late Miocene. If we could see one alive, it might have resembled an elephant seal and we wouldn't have noticed a difference unless it had different coloring or moved differently. I think Bobby would catch on to something different about it, though. Anyway, that's a nice piece. Allodesmus canines are almost always found broken and worn. Jess Thanks for the response, Jess. I am learning Allodesmus. It seems to have a number of species under the genus and there also seems to be variation in canines across the genus. From the photo above where I compared to a seal tooth from Aurora, there is a LOT of similarity between a seal tooth from Aurora and a Allodesmus tooth from STH. It is very helpful to know that there are no seals at STH. Thanks for the assist. Just discussing a fossil gives me new insights. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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