Rhinoceros or buffalo rib?

[vietnamfossil]

Hi folks!

Recently I found a rib from a Paleolithic site which dating about 21000- 10000BP. As the size of this huge, I don’t know if it belongs to the rhinoceros buffalo? 
Note: I try to put together with the vertebrae of bison priscus from Europe (TH8 bone) and it bigger. 

 

[fossilhunter21]

Hi,

 

would it be possible to clean the specimens? it would probably make it easier to ID them.

[Mahnmut]

At least for my personal taste I would try to leave the shells in place.

ID-ing ribs is difficult at best I have been told.

Best Regards,

J

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

43 minutes ago, Mahnmut said:

At least for my personal taste I would try to leave the shells in place.

 

Whether to clean the shells away or not is a matter of taste, but I agree that since they seem to adhere to the specimen, I'd leave them be and clean the bone around it. This way you'll both have a better looking specimen, but still preserve the context from which it came.

 

43 minutes ago, Mahnmut said:

ID-ing ribs is difficult at best I have been told.

 

As Jan correctly points out, identifying ribs is very difficult, as they generally have few diagnostic features and can often at best be identified as to approximate clade. For this, though, the features of the bone would need to be clearly visible from various angles. Also, keep in mind that not all ribs have the same length all over an animal's body, and that the size difference illustrated between your two specimens may, in fact, be absolutely acceptable within a single individual.

 

See if you can clean up the bone a bit more with either wooden tooth picks, metal dental picks or a preparation needle (depending on how encrusted the bone is) and then post some new photographs from how it looks after. Possible @Max-fossils or @Shellseeker may then be able to help you identify the specimen.

[Shellseeker]

Let me start with my experience with Rhino fossils. I have collected Rhino teeth and tusks (it seems that my hunting location does not preserve bone).  I have exactly 1 Rhino Astragalus. Net: I have limited experience and this my questions.

1) What is " rhinoceros buffalo"? Does it have a scientific name? What is a "Rhino ribon"?

2) Why are there 2 fossils in the 1st photo ?

3) You provide a gauge of 8 cm, and thus the rib is 24 cm is length.. Please provide an exact measurement.

4) In the 2nd photo, you compare to vertebrae of bison priscus, and state that vert of rhinoceros buffalo is bigger.  Does this mean that the vertebrae of bison priscus is on the right side of 2nd photo?

 

It seems like your question is:  Do Rhinos have 24 cm ribs that end like this? In looking at ribs from other Rhinos, I do not see this pattern.? My take is that this bone is not a rib from a Rhino

[Mahnmut]

Hi,

as another non-native english speaker I assume that "ribbon" was supposed to mean rib, and the question may be wether this is a buffalo rib or a rhino rib.

Cheers, J

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

4 minutes ago, Mahnmut said:

[A]s another non-native english speaker I assume that "ribbon" was supposed to mean rib, and the question may be wether this is a buffalo rib or a rhino rib.

 

Yup, that's what I got out of it as well

[JohnJ]

Topic title and text edited from "ribbon" to "rib".  

 

[Shellseeker]

I have made an assumption that the bone on the right side of the 1st photo is either Rhino or Buffalo..

I try to use a Bison rib as stand_in for Buffalo,

 

I do not have a decent close up photo of the end of a Rhino rib, but the ones in this thread do not seem to the obvious shape on the rib we are trying to identify. . 

My net is that this is more likely a Buffalo rather than Rhino rib.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

36 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

My net is that this is more likely a Buffalo rather than Rhino rib.

 

That's also what my intuition tells me, but your references seem to support this. Having these in addition to your original answer (which also answered the question in a perfectly adequate way) really helps. Thanks!

[vietnamfossil]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:40 AM, Shellseeker said:

I have made an assumption that the bone on the right side of the 1st photo is either Rhino or Buffalo..

I try to use a Bison rib as stand_in for Buffalo,

 

I do not have a decent close up photo of the end of a Rhino rib, but the ones in this thread do not seem to the obvious shape on the rib we are trying to identify. . 

My net is that this is more likely a Buffalo rather than Rhino rib.

Thank you for your answers, sorry with my bad English. 
The matrix is so hard and for cave breccia, normally they will put the bone in acid, this things could destroy the shells so I still keep it like that.

As we know that in Southeast Asia that time it might be 3 rhinoceros: the Indian rhinoceros, the Javan rhinoceros and the smallest is the Sumatra 2 horns rhino which is the smallest rhino in the world. Even smaller than buffalo. 
The top of the rib very square, and the rib had been chopped by prehistoric human so it will going longer.

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, vietnamfossil said:

The top of the rib very square, and the rib had been chopped by prehistoric human so it will going longer.

You posted this ID request last year,  and yet we have no clear answer. Ribs are hard to identify because they lack diagnostic features.

You have one very diagnostic feature in the bone end.... Take other angle photos of the bone end.

This is not a Rhino rib but it does look similar to some Cow, Bison, Buffalo ribs.  Above, I pointed you to a thread.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/89346-what-bone-is-this/

In the thread there is a photo of cow and/or Bison ribs. These end tips on ribs positioned close to the front of the animal look similar to your bone.

I have no other insights to share.

[vietnamfossil]

On 8/28/2022 at 11:16 PM, Shellseeker said:

You posted this ID request last year,  and yet we have no clear answer. Ribs are hard to identify because they lack diagnostic features.

You have one very diagnostic feature in the bone end.... Take other angle photos of the bone end.

This is not a Rhino rib but it does look similar to some Cow, Bison, Buffalo ribs.  Above, I pointed you to a thread.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/89346-what-bone-is-this/

In the thread there is a photo of cow and/or Bison ribs. These end tips on ribs positioned close to the front of the animal look similar to your bone.

I have no other insights to share.

I decided to prep it today and see how it appear, I try to keep the shell. The rib more curve and not straight like bovid. 
what do you think?

[Shellseeker]

7 hours ago, vietnamfossil said:

I decided to prep it today and see how it appear, I try to keep the shell. The rib more curve and not straight like bovid. 
what do you think?

As far as I know,  Bovid is the only Genus that even looks similar to your prepped bone.  I have seen on the internet some Horse ribs and a very few Rhino ribs but none of those ribs exhibit the a proximal end similar to your bone.

We seem to be at a dead end unless your can find a photo on the internet that exhibits a similar proximal end for a mammal that is not in the bovid family.

[vietnamfossil]

51 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

As far as I know,  Bovid is the only Genus that even looks similar to your prepped bone.  I have seen on the internet some Horse ribs and a very few Rhino ribs but none of those ribs exhibit the a proximal end similar to your bone.

We seem to be at a dead end unless your can find a photo on the internet that exhibits a similar proximal end for a mammal that is not in the bovid family.

Thank you! I will try with more comparison in local zoology museum