Tiourarén Formation Tooth - theropod

[FF7_Yuffie]

Hello, anyone able to id this for me?

 

A theropod tooth

1.33 inch

From Tiourarén Hill, Tenere Desert, Niger

 

A bit battered, but there are serrations visible. 

 

Thanks for the help.

[Kikokuryu]

Any mesial serrations? The mesial edge doesn't seem to be preserved and completely worn away which will likely make ID impossible. But the pictures of the mesial edge aren't that clear.

 

Also, I'm still not 100% certain if Tiourarén Hill is a valid provenance, or if it was just a generic thing slapped on like people do with Taouz on Kem Kem material. Tiourarén is apparently a hill? So the provenance provided here is just Tiourarén and not a place called Tiourarén Hill? But I don't really know the geography so.

 

I've gotten different provenance for my own Jurassic teeth I've purchased somewhat recently, but it might as well be nonexistent cause it doesn't show up anywhere on a map.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Kikokuryu

[Troodon]

Not familiar with Tiouraren Hill.  You can see on the attached map how close Jurassic and Cretaceous deposits can be.  We will need a read on the mesial carina and how far does it extend down the carina even if the serrations are worn.

[FF7_Yuffie]

Wow, ok, very close--so it could be a cretaceous tooth, especially since Tiouraren hill could not be a valid place. 

 

I haven't really done a mesial carina check on my teeth before. That is the front edge of the tooth and whether the serrations would extend to the base or not? This tooth the serrations are worn off completely on that side. But I will give it a look with my microscope later, see if there's any sign zoomed in. Is it a count of serratiosn if possible that is needed, or just where it extends to?

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

3 hours ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

Is it a count of serratiosn if possible that is needed, or just where it extends to?

 

12 hours ago, Troodon said:

We will need a read on the mesial carina and how far does it extend down the carina even if the serrations are worn.

 

So the mesial carina is the anterior one, as in dental anatomy the "mesial" direction is the one that leads to the midline of the jaw/the symphysis anterior to the jaw.

 

(source)

 

From what I understand what you'd be is a relative indication of how far down the carina extends. You're right though that in the identification of theropod teeth serration-density is often also used. This would be a number of "x serrations per y millimetre", taken midway up the tooth, if I'm not mistaken...

[Kikokuryu]

7 hours ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

Wow, ok, very close--so it could be a cretaceous tooth, especially since Tiouraren hill could not be a valid place. 

You know the thing that's really frustrating about it? It's almost certainly Jurassic, but if there's any possibility that it isn't, you couldn't say for certain.

 

Elrhaz Formation theropods other than Suchomimus are rare; on the other hand, Jurassic theropods appear to be rather common.

 

That said, the fractured look of your tooth and general color looks more like Irhazer/Tiouraren than Elrhaz, but not definitive as it is not really exaggerated like some other teeth. Jurassic teeth that get weathered end up looking really ugly (the white teeth fractured into a 100 pieces, yet very stable due to the super tough matrix), but it is what people assume is unique to the Jurassic deposits in Niger. It does make sense why they end up like that if exposed to the elements as these teeth naturally come out of the ground already fractured into a 100 pieces and very deformed from the way they are preserved. The fractured pieces also give off a metallic shine in the light if it's still pristine.

 

In contrast, the teeth with a black and brown blend/mix with smooth polish is unique to Elrhaz and are not in a bunch of tiny pieces held together by strong matrix. However, I have seen and have Suchomimus that are pristine that are light brown or orange, and reddish in color without the polished look as well. So just because a tooth isn't polished like most Elrhaz teeth, doesn't mean it's not Elrhaz/Cretaceous.

 

I have not seen any Suchomimus or Nigersaurus with the super fractures of Jurassic teeth, so I don't think they are preserved in that way.

 

I think what does happen is that Jurassic theropods are mixed into Elrhaz piles as filler to make it look nicer. But vise versa, I don't think they throw things like Eocarcharia or Kryptops into Jurassic piles. I've never seen Suchomimus or Nigersaurus thrown into Jurassic lots so I assume it just doesn't happen that often.

 

I guess it could also be neither Tiouraren/Irhazer or Elrhaz since you don't know exactly where they are digging these up and how they are mixed them into bigger lots.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Kikokuryu

[Troodon]

4 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

So the mesial carina is the anterior one, a

This is whats needed to aid, by far guarantee, the identification of isolated Jurassic theropod teeth.  Locations like Niger are much more problematic since not much has been published and the little that has makes it more confusing.  Provenance is also key and very difficult to get accurate info since the teeth can pass through many hands before winding up for sale.

 

[FF7_Yuffie]

Thanks very much. I will give those sides a measure tomorrow, and measure the base too. 

[FF7_Yuffie]

ok, I have the measurements

 

CH - 35.56 mm (a bit longer than seller had labelled)

AL:: 37 MM

CBL: 18 MM

CBW: 1 MM

 

Unfortunately, denticles on the mesial side are all worn away and the bottom of the tooth is very batterd. Even with microscope, I couldn't see even faint ones.

[Troodon]

Unfortunately its all about that mesial carina its extension and density.   Do you think a carina with serrations was ever present 

[FF7_Yuffie]

44 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Unfortunately its all about that mesial carina its extension and density.   Do you think a carina with serrations was ever present 

 

I have just had a close look along with my microscope and unfortunately, that side is just too worn to tell--not helped by matrix still on the tooth on that side and various cracks and chips. 

[Troodon]

Looks like a lateral tooth so IF the locality can support the Tiouraren Fm and IF the mesial carina extends part way down one possibility is that it's the Meglosaurid  Afrovenator.   So preservation is key in the possible identification of these teeth, something to consider on future purchases.