Selling Real for Fake Fossils?

[Lucid_Bot]

Everyone I've encountered on this site has been very helpful, so thank you. However, I'm in need of more help. For the last year I've been collecting real fossils in the field and selling some to pay for more exotic rocks. In a recent post I found that my Solnhofen shrimp is, if not totally, mostly fake. Now I'm quite suspicious of my entire purchased collection and was hoping you could help me identify fakes. The first two pictures are apparently Priscacara, Green River Formation, Eocene; the next two supposedly Asteroidea, Morocco, Ordovician; the last three supposedly Triassic, Arizona petrified wood--this came from the same group that sold me the fake shrimp. All help is appreciated.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Lucid_Bot

[Nanotyrannus35]

The priscacara is real.

[Fossildude19]

Starfish looks completely carved. 

[Lucid_Bot]

2 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Starfish looks completely carved. 

Does this mean it's just stone carved in the shape of a starfish?

[rocket]

Yes, there are great artists in morocco who are able to produce fantastic starfishes, trilobites, dinoskulls...

The Priscarara is wonderful, very nice

The wood, I have never seen one like this from arizona. It is an original polished wood, but arizona, might be. 

[Fossildude19]

47 minutes ago, Lucid_Bot said:

Does this mean it's just stone carved in the shape of a starfish?

 

Yes.  I see no evidence of real starfish here. Compare yours:

 

 

to this one:

 

[Troodon]

The AZ petrified wood looks pretty typical of what I see sold at shows for display or tables, so I believe you're good.  Plenty around.

[Lucid_Bot]

1 minute ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

Yes.  I see no evidence of real starfish here. Compare yours:

 

And here I thought it was just well preserved. The same group sells me one real and one fake. Is this incompetent or insidious?

[Fossildude19]

1 minute ago, Lucid_Bot said:

And here I thought it was just well preserved. The same group sells me one real and one fake. Is this incompetent or insidious?

 

They may not know themselves. The fake Moroccan and Chinese fossils are quite prevalent. Most retailers don't know real from fake and go off of what their suppliers tell them.

 

Bottom line is, check with us before you buy.

[Troodon]

My experience with online dealers is that most just flip product and are not expert in everything they sell or anything they sell and typically just pass on what they are told.  However they have a responsibility to be accountable for their product and be somewhat knowledgeable in their offerings.  Do check with us before you buy but it also suggests you look elsewhere for your fossils.  My message to all collectors has always been don't trust anything you see and if your not an expert get it verified.

[Lucid_Bot]

13 minutes ago, Troodon said:

My experience with online dealers is that most just flip product and are not expert in everything they sell or anything they sell and typically just pass on what they are told.  However they have a responsibility to be accountable for their product and be somewhat knowledgeable in their offerings.  Do check with us before you buy but it also suggests you look elsewhere for your fossils.  My message to all collectors has always been don't trust anything you see and if your not an expert get it verified.

I'm appreciative that I have this site as a resource. I can't say that I trust any group now.

[rocket]

12 hours ago, Troodon said:

My experience with online dealers is that most just flip product and are not expert in everything they sell or anything they sell and typically just pass on what they are told.  

absolutly

I think there are several dozen dealer in US and perhaps two dozen in Europe you can really trust because the have the knowlegde, do proper photos and give all the infos you need as a client. And, perhaps one million at online who have knowlegde about whatever, but not about fossils... Onlinemarkets make it easy to decieve or to sell quick...

[RJB]

Very nice Prisci!

 

RB

[rocket]

14 hours ago, Troodon said:

The AZ petrified wood looks pretty typical of what I see sold at shows for display or tables, so I believe you're good.  Plenty around.

 

what do you think about this one? We got it as "Arizona", 82 cm Diameter, brown color

and one we got as "Arizona", partly pink with a diameter of around 80 cm I have seen one like this in this color some years ago when we visited the petrified forest, but never see another one

 

[rocket]

we normally know them like this: red, blue, rarely a bit yellow, both are around 65 - 70 cm

[mr.cheese]

14 hours ago, Troodon said:

My experience with online dealers is that most just flip product and are not expert in everything they sell or anything they sell and typically just pass on what they are told.  However they have a responsibility to be accountable for their product and be somewhat knowledgeable in their offerings.  Do check with us before you buy but it also suggests you look elsewhere for your fossils.  My message to all collectors has always been don't trust anything you see and if your not an expert get it verified.

I have a physical shop and use here often for reference or straight up advice as to be honest I am learning as I go. I am five years in business now and have learnt so much but have really only scratched the surface. The prevalence of fakes at some of the dealers/wholesalers I have visited can be staggering. I have had to learn who I can trust but also I have learned to ask the right questions of them (and take a UV torch and an eyeglass!), so if I have someone in my shop say looking at trilobites and they say I am an expert and this is fake or such. I can then refer back to my suppliers and go from there as my reputation is on the line not theirs and that can and is a tough thing to build and can be lost very quickly.

But sadly there are so many people who just sell it/ move it on and often they have bought it at "fake" price and then resell at "genuine" price. It is one thing to sell a fake as a cheap fake, as a bit of fun for kids etc but it is down right dishonest to sell fakes knowingly and it really gets my blood going. It gives me and others a bad name before we even start.

 

I have had badly rebuilt trilobites in and heavily "enhanced" green river fish as well and I have learnt from my mistakes, often at quite a cost, but my hard won knowledge I can now use as not only a tool to help me choose the right stock, but also to pass on to customers as we chat so they will spot fakes for themselves in the future too. So I think it does everyone a bit of good to own a fake or two as you can sit and examine it and learn just as much from a fake sometimes as you can the real deal.

 

The trick is not to get caught twice!

 

[Troodon]

8 hours ago, rocket said:

I think there are several dozen dealer in US and perhaps two dozen in Europe you can really trust

 

My experience of over 25 years says when it comes to identification of Dinosaur material do not trust anyone.   You really have to be an expert to get it right and very very few are.    I help several online and show dealers with identification and happy to offer my assistance to anyone.

So check everything out to be safe.   

 

Far from an expert on Petrified wood just know them by walking around like the one at the Tucson Fossil show,  slabs come all different colors an they are not cheap.  Color can drive price but yours are typical of what I see.  There are a few from  China  and Madagascar which are cheaper but don't know how to differentiate them.   Here are some AZ images from the show

 

 

 

 

[Troodon]

24 minutes ago, mr.cheese said:

I have a physical shop and use here often for reference or straight up advice as to be honest I am learning as I go. I am five years in business now and have learnt so much but have really only scratched the surface. The prevalence of fakes at some of the dealers/wholesalers I have visited can be staggering. I have had to learn who I can trust but also I have learned to ask the right questions of them (and take a UV torch and an eyeglass!), so if I have someone in my shop say looking at trilobites and they say I am an expert and this is fake or such. I can then refer back to my suppliers and go from there as my reputation is on the line not theirs and that can and is a tough thing to build and can be lost very quickly.

But sadly there are so many people who just sell it/ move it on and often they have bought it at "fake" price and then resell at "genuine" price. It is one thing to sell a fake as a cheap fake, as a bit of fun for kids etc but it is down right dishonest to sell fakes knowingly and it really gets my blood going. It gives me and others a bad name before we even start.

 

I have had badly rebuilt trilobites in and heavily "enhanced" green river fish as well and I have learnt from my mistakes, often at quite a cost, but my hard won knowledge I can now use as not only a tool to help me choose the right stock, but also to pass on to customers as we chat so they will spot fakes for themselves in the future too. So I think it does everyone a bit of good to own a fake or two as you can sit and examine it and learn just as much from a fake sometimes as you can the real deal.

 

The trick is not to get caught twice!

 

 

I appreciate what you are experiencing, and learning is part of the business/hobby for everyone.   I been going to the Tucson show forever and unfortunately a lot of this junk gets sold to unsuspected buyers, but some know exactly what they purchasing.  Its a lucrative business since they are back every year and why we has dealers or collectors need to educate ourselves and keep our antenna up with every purchase

[Lucid_Bot]

I certainly understand if no one wants to get involved, but the seller of the starfish would give me a refund if I provided a paleontologist's name, credentials and assessment of the specimen. This was my mistake, and I don't know you, so I wouldn't expect anyone to provide their information. I just have to throw this out there.

[Troodon]

I cannot comment on that specimen but you should ask him what paleontologist did he use to identify and validate it,  sorry but it's a ridiculous request by seller.  

[Fossildude19]

Not a paleontologist, so I can't help you with that.

 

Just giving my opinion, based on using common sense, comparative pictures, and experience with real fossils.

Knowing what I know, I steer well clear of anything I am not positive is a fossil, with special care taken of anything of Moroccan or Chinese origin.

 

I would have the seller point out any identifying features that  can show or prove it is real.

 

Any seller not willing to stand behind their products is not worth doing business with, in my opinion.  Take note, lesson learned, and move on.

 

 

 

[Lucid_Bot]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

I cannot comment on that specimen but you should ask him what paleontologist did he use to identify and validate it,  sorry but it's ridiculous request by seller.  

It is ridiculous. I shouldn't have to validate what they sell.

[Sjfriend]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:17 AM, Lucid_Bot said:

I certainly understand if no one wants to get involved, but the seller of the starfish would give me a refund if I provided a paleontologist's name, credentials and assessment of the specimen. This was my mistake, and I don't know you, so I wouldn't expect anyone to provide their information. I just have to throw this out there.

No one i know would do this without having the specimen in question at hand. The only way to be positive beyond a doubt is in hand inspection. But, the advice here is often given by those whom have experience with and/or knowledge of the specimens in question and can steer you in the right direction.

 

Best of luck. We all take a chance buying, especially online. 

[rocket]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:17 PM, Lucid_Bot said:

I certainly understand if no one wants to get involved, but the seller of the starfish would give me a refund if I provided a paleontologist's name, credentials and assessment of the specimen. This was my mistake, and I don't know you, so I wouldn't expect anyone to provide their information. I just have to throw this out there.

the seller needs to make sure it is genuine. This is the case with every product. If they sell something fake, that's their problem, not yours. let him prove

[Lucid_Bot]

1 hour ago, rocket said:

the seller needs to make sure it is genuine. This is the case with every product. If they sell something fake, that's their problem, not yours. let him prove

At least the seller gave me store credit.