Isle of Wight Bone

[dhiggi]

My daughter and I have just returned from the Isle of Wight, we hunted a couple of times around Yarmouth and Bouldnor where the beaches are full of Oligocene material. We found lots of pieces of croc, turtle and sturgeon as well as a small fish vert. We also found this which I think is the distal end of a mammal humerus. While I don’t think Pleistocene can be ruled out, the bone is heavy and feels fully mineralised. Tapping it with a spoon sounds like hitting rock as opposed to bone and it feels a lot more like rock than any of the ice age bones in our collection.

I have read that as well as croc, turtle etc there were Oligocene mammals such as Tapir known in that area. 
Can anyone identify what the bone may have come from? 
Also, do I need to do anything to preserve it? Should I soak it to remove any salt and then coat with paraloid?

 

Thanks for looking 

[Calli99]

Not sure what it is (except really cool) but I would definitely soak it in fresh water for a week or so, change the water after 3 days. I do this for all my beach finds - which of course are nearly of them being in the UK!

[Shellseeker]

Looks like the distal end of a Humerus,  Here is one from a bison in Kansas

 

[rocket]

big size, Bison, Rhino, Megalotherium or something like this

Perhaps something is known from there, do you have good literature about the site?

[jpc]

yes, distal humerus.  

Oligocene or Pleistocene?  I can't say.  I am not familiar enough with the large IoW Oligocene critters. 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by jpc

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Unfortunately, I don't have my literature on IoW with me, so I can't verify what large mammalian species would've been around in the area during the Oligocene. However, it's clear that this is the epiphysis of a mammalian long bone. While I initially thought this might be a femur, I think you're indeed correct in believing this to come from a humerus.

 

Based on your own suggestion of this possibly being tapir, I did a bit of research and bumped into some Mountain Tapir (Tapirus pinchaque) bones listed on the Encyclopedia of Life and held in the collections of the Museum of Comparative Zoology of Harvard University. Unfortunately, none of the bones are identified, so  I therefore took this image from Wikipedia as a reference.

 

 

From doing so, I could determine that the bones on the Encyclopedia of Life represent the front-legs of, presumably, a single tapir individual, matching the bones up and identifying them as such:

 

 

Left radius (longer) and ulna (shorter) bones of Tapirus pinchaque in lateral and medial views

 

 

 

Left radius (longer) and ulna (shorter) bones of Tapirus pinchaque in lateral and medial views

 

 

 

Tapirus pinchaque right humerus

 

 

 

Tapirus pinchaque left humerus

 

 

Tapirus pinchaque hand bones

 

 

Looking at the above bones, I certainly do see similarities, especially since the match should not be expected to be exact - there already seems to be quite some variation between extant species of tapir, let alone such distantly related ancestors. Then again, I've got very little experience with mammals, nor with the site, so it might be good to check with @Haravex to see what he might as to the age and identity of the bone. Likewise, may be @Harry Pristis might recognize the shape of the bone or be able to tell us whether it seems in line for a perissodactylid.

 

As to conservation, I'd say the more mineralised the specimen is, the less treatment it needs, especially from a consolidant such as Paraloid B-72. That's because the fossil appears solid and the Paraloid would probably not penetrate too deeply into a heavily mineralised bone anyway. Of course, this raises the question of whether you'd like to keep your fossils as natural as possible or like the look application of Paraloid provides. This choice is a luxury you don't always get with fossils, but it sounds like yours is one of the exceptions.

 

As to desalination: I'd definitely do that, even on a heavily mineralised bone, although, again, processing time can be reduced, as the more heavily mineralised the specimen is, the less salt will have been able to penetrate, and the easier it should be to remove. All the same, give it a couple of baths. You can start with regular tap water, but would preferably switch to demineralised water for the last bath to last bath or two. I'm also observing some algal growth, which may start stinking as it decays. This can be removed by careful scrubbing using a soft toothbrush and a dilute bleach solution. Make sure to protect your eyes, hands, clothes and working surface and test it out on an inconspicuous place first. Also rinse thoroughly with water after treatment.

[dhiggi]

16 hours ago, rocket said:

big size, Bison, Rhino, Megalotherium or something like this

Perhaps something is known from there, do you have good literature about the site?

Definitely something big, similar in size to that of a modern cow (I see lots of them in my line of work) but different shape

[dhiggi]

Thank you for the info @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon, from searching around I can’t find much info on the IoW mammals of Oligocene. I can’t see any kind of match for the small hole in the bone, though I’m not sure if this hole has just occurred post mortem through what would have been a very thin layer of bone.

I have the piece soaking in water now, once the salt is out I’ll let it dry then decide how to proceed with the small patch of algae.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

49 minutes ago, dhiggi said:

Thank you for the info @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon, from searching around I can’t find much info on the IoW mammals of Oligocene.

 

Actually, I just realised that the booklet I was looking for, "The essential guide to fossiling on the Isle of Wight" is here at my parents' place, so I'll look up some of this information for you a bit later today 

 

Quote

I can’t see any kind of match for the small hole in the bone, though I’m not sure if this hole has just occurred post mortem through what would have been a very thin layer of bone.

 

Yeah, that hole is rather weird. But as the bone is rather thin there I wouldn't call it surprising either. In fact, it looks like there's a slight bevel around it, which suggests a fresh bone puncture, as opposed to the sharp edges typically seen on dry bone breaks add the one that broke the epiphysis off from the rest of the bone. This means the puncture is either antemortem or, more likely, perimortem damage, and I therefore suspect it may be damage from predation. Lots of large crocodiles with big round teeth in the area, for instance...

[minnbuckeye]

4 hours ago, dhiggi said:

similar in size to that of a modern cow (I see lots of them in my line of work)

 

Out of curiosity, what line of work? I am a retired  veterinarian who dealt with both dairy and beef cattle frequently.

  

Nice find!!!!!!

[dhiggi]

31 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said:

 

Out of curiosity, what line of work? I am a retired  veterinarian who dealt with both dairy and beef cattle frequently.

  

Nice find!!!!!!

I’m a butcher

[minnbuckeye]

Vets are occasional "butchers" too!! Thank goodness not often.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

So here's the information I was able to pluck from the 2015 edition of "The essential guide to fossiling on the Isle of Wight". I apologise beforehand for the quality of the scans, which, being away from home, I had to make with my mobile phone.

 

Quote

Yarmouth

A great location for collecting early Oligocene fossils. The beds although a long walk from the nearest parking are worth visiting as they produce the same high quality fossils as Hamstead with ice age bones of bos and horse often found. Care must be taken as tides can make collecting difficult.

Fossils to be found:

• Mammal
• Crocodile
• Turtle
• Shells
• Seeds

 

Quote

Hamstead

This location is one of the best for finding Oligocene fossils. The turtle and crocodile bones preserved here are some of the best in the UK. All fossils can be collected from the foreshore.

Fossils to be found:

• Mammal
• Crocodile
• Turtle
• Shells
• Seeds

 

Quote

Thorness Bay

The Hamstead beds continue into Thorness Bay. There is also a very productive limestone shell bed but most collectors are seeking the blue/green beds that have produced over 200 pieces of insects, and the limestone bed that has included very rare bird feathers.

Fossils to be found:

• Mammal
• Crocodile
• Turtle
• Shells
• Insects

 

Combining the information provided about these three Oligocene localities and focussing on mammals gets me a list of the following (unfortunately without any species or even generic names):

• Bison
• Horse
• Deer
• Bothriodon

Also, note that no tapirs were mentioned, so that might mean Bothriodon was meant instead...

 

Anyway, hope this helps.

[dhiggi]

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

Useful info, thank you Alexander. I’m going to try to show it to a few knowledgeable people in the hope of at least getting a rough age on it, but I fear it may just have to be labelled as ‘mammalian humerus from the … era’

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

20 minutes ago, dhiggi said:

I’m going to try to show it to a few knowledgeable people in the hope of at least getting a rough age on it, but I fear it may just have to be labelled as ‘mammalian humerus from the … era’

 

That'd be a pity, if not realistically likely. And while you've already returned home, of course, what I'd recommend in this case is to take the piece along to Shanklin on your next visit to the Isle of Wight. There's a fossil shop there, which is where I got the booklet I copied the information out off. The owner is a long time collector and dealer of local fossils, and seemed very knowledgeable when I was there in 2015 (although I myself, at that point, was way less so, so it'd have probably been very easy to impress me ) .

 

I'd also still like to @Max-fossils, just to see whether he might not wager a guess. But I think there's simply more knowledge on Pleistocene then Oligocene out there, which may make this difficult to identify without the help of an academic specialist 

[fossillarry]

The Isle of Wight is noted for Eocene and Oligocene fossil mammals. The specimen is the distal(lower)end of a humerus.It looks like a large carnivore.

[Max-fossils]

On 6/5/2022 at 2:28 PM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

I'd also still like to @Max-fossils, just to see whether he might not wager a guess. But I think there's simply more knowledge on Pleistocene then Oligocene out there, which may make this difficult to identify without the help of an academic specialist 

Sorry I'm late to the party, haven't been on the forum for a little while! Thanks for the tag though. 

 

Very nice find!

Having gone to Bouldnor a couple times myself, I would say that the preservation of your bone definitely looks Oligocene (and my friend who's been there very often agrees), not Pleistocene (I also find that your humerus doesn't really fit any of the Pleistocene mammals I can think of right now). Unfortunately, the Oligocene mammal remains are not very well described yet, and most of the focus so far has been on their teeth. But this example of a partial anoplotherid humerus from the IoW is quite similar to yours I reckon: note how wide those lines become at the base, and how the groove is pointy/triangular. Sadly, I've not found any Bothriodon (or other anthracothere) humerus examples online, so I don't know if that would be a better fit. To play it safe, I would recommend just keeping this down as indeterminate large mammal for now (but definitely Oligocene). 

Either way, this is probably a really special and rather rare find! I would suggest showing it to the people at the Dinosaur Isle museum in Sandown, or at another museum where they have someone specializing in Oligocene UK mammals. The lack of comparative material currently available not only makes identification for anyone that isn't an expert very difficult, as Pachy has already pointed out, but is also an indication that you've got something quite rare here. So hopefully it can get researched on!

Well done on finding this great fossil!

Best,

Max

[sjaak]

Nice find indeed! Distal end of a mammal humerus. This shouldn’t be too hard to ID if you go to a museum with a good comparison collection.  

Edited June 25, 2022 by sjaak

[Adie_uk]

You need to talk to Theo, he is on this forum but clearly not seen it yet, If your on facebook search for wight coast fossils, will find a link, one of the team will pick up your message, ask if theo can take a look... Its interesting as it looks to have the right colour to be old and you say its very dense/ heavy but its bigger than anything i have seen for these formations, of course the most common larget mammal found here is Bothriodon But looks like it maybe too big for that, really interesting i have been hunting along the north of the iow for 8 or 9 years now not picked up anything this chunky , Theo found an early Rhino tooth i believe thats been donated to the museum dont have the species name to hand but maybe a contender. link to theos page https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=wight%20coast%20fossils

[Adie_uk]

just spotted in the tags if it can be added or edited you have it tagged as white, its spelt wight, just incase people are searching later they wont find it :)

[dhiggi]

@Adie_uk & @Max-fossils, thank you both for your input. I contacted Wight Coast Fossils on Instagram and got the following message Back from Theo…

 

Hi, 

This is a very large distal humerus from a mammal from the Upper Hamstead Member! A really nice find and quite rare at this size! 

In terms of mammals of that size in the Upper Hamstead member the main candidates would be Ronzotherium, a hornless species of rhinoceros, Entelodon or potentially a very large anthracothere. Ronzotherium and Entelodon are very rare but it seems beyond the size range of an anthracothere! 

The best bet would be to email Jerry Hooker at the Natural
History Musuem as he’s the leading expert on Oligocene mammals from the island! 

His address is …

All the best, 

Theo Vickers 

Wight Coast Fossils

 

The bone is currently at a local fossil shop (Whitby) as I was keen for Byron’s opinion, particularly on the possible age of it. This is what he said;

 

Had a look at the bone and it certainly looks like it came from the bouldnor formation likely upper hamstead member. Roughly 33 million years old. 
It is a distal humerus. Probably either from the anthracothere bothriodon or a primitive rhino called Ronzotherium. The dinosaur isle museum might know more. 

Once I have it back in hand I will get some better pictures and contact Jerry Hooker

[Adie_uk]

wow did you just get that reply? thats was quick lol

 

[Adie_uk]

Fantastic! what a find! so luck Im very jellous here is the tooth Theo found of Ronzotherium,

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Adie_uk

[dhiggi]

5 minutes ago, Adie_uk said:

just spotted in the tags if it can be added or edited you have it tagged as white, its spelt wight, just incase people are searching later they wont find it

Didn’t even notice, I just started typing and clicked on the suggestion that came up. Not sure I can edit now

[dhiggi]

1 minute ago, Adie_uk said:

wow did you just get that reply? thats was quick lol

 

No, that was a couple of weeks ago, the notification of your reply reminded me…