Pleistocene Vertebra

[Brandy Cole]

I found this vertebra over the weekend and was excited to see it still had a spinous process attached.  I believe it's one of the earlier thoracic vertebra on the spine, like a T1.

 

It doesn't resemble the horse or bison verts I've found, and I'm wondering if it could be camelid.  Since it's fairly round and convex on the anterior side, I considered reptile, but alligator would be all that I'd think would fit with size, and it's a poor visual match compared to the gator examples I've seen.

 

Any ideas are always appreciated.

 

[Lorne Ledger]

I am getting a horse vibe

[Brandy Cole]

@Lorne Ledger @GPayton

Thank you for taking a look!

 

I considered horse at first, but there are a couple of things that don't seem to match up well with horse.  

There are some good examples of horse thoracic vertebra on this page.

https://www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/the-thoracic-vertebrae/

For one thing, most of the spinous processes  of horse thoracic vertebrae seem pretty straight-lined, almost like slats in a window blind, when you look at them from a lateral view.  But when you look at my piece from a lateral angle, the spinous process has a broader fan shape instead with a notch at the base.

 

So, then I thought maybe mine was a horse T1, because the spinous process on the T1 vertebra in horse has a more fan-type look to it.  But I found a picture of a horse T1 at the above link, and to me, it doesn't compare super well to mine. When I compare mine to the horse T1, some of the differences might be explained by wear and condition, but my piece has that pretty pronounced notch at the base of the spinous process near the centrum that the horse lacks.  Also, there seems to be a big difference in the angle at which the vertebrae appear to naturally sit. 

 

When the front and back of the centrum of the horse T1 are sitting parallel on a flat plane, the spinous process doesn't look to have a very pronounced slant to it.  It angles out, but still remains largely centered over the centrum.  But when I position mine similarly, there's a really noticeable slant (so I have to hold it up with a finger to keep it from tipping).

 

I've looked for other animals with similar looking fan-shaped spinous processes, and the ones that seemed most similar to me were big cats.  Maybe I'm way off base because carnivore material is rare here.  But American lion material is possible.  The large felid thoracic vertebrae examples I found online seem to share that fan-shaped, steeply angled spinous process with a notch at the base like mine.  Is it possible this vertebra could be from a very large felid?

 

Pic 1: Showing the slat-like spinous processes of most thoracic vertebra of horse.

 

Pic 2: T1 transitional thoracic vertebra in horse.

 

Pic 3: My piece in a lateral view, showing the fan-like spinous process.

 

Pic 4: Thoracic vertebrae examples from a young male American lion. from https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Vertebrae-from-the-early-adult-small-male-lion-skeleton-of-Huttenheim-Huttenheimer_fig4_233116860/amp

 

 

[Brandy Cole]

@Harry Pristis @Shellseeker Any thoughts?

[fossilus]

Vertebra can be very tough.  Yours reminds me of this vertebra that was sold as giant armadillo- it may give you a path to follow.

@PrehistoricFlorida

[Brandy Cole]

@fossilus Thank you. That is another direction worth considering.  Vertebrae really are tough.  I just had high hopes for this one because it was pretty complete and to me, it looked noticeably different from the horse, deer, and bison examples I've found.  

[Shellseeker]

Brandy,

I agree that Vert are difficult.... Earlier this year,  I found a vert that had a 4+ inch centrum..  and I thought how big an animal to have 4 inch centrums.. the vert I found had very obvious articulation facets,  and in searching , I found that Sloth caudal verts had similar facets (your photos 2,3,4).

Here is an example:

It is another possibility to check,   Jack

 

[Brandy Cole]

@Shellseeker Thank you!

The centrum on mine is only roughly 1 inch by a little more than 1 inch and doesn't seem very robust when I compare it to the glyptodont centrum I have (and even a horse example I have). It almost looks squished, where the xenarthran examples I've seen (and your example here) have very flat, broad centrums. But I won't rule xenarthran out as a possibility, especially since some differences could be explained by different body position. 

 

[JohnJ]

It's a captivating puzzle.  I think you are on track looking at thoracic vertebrae.  The position of the caudal facets is probably the key.

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

@Shellseeker Thank you!

The centrum on mine is only roughly 1 inch by a little more than 1 inch and doesn't seem very robust when I compare it to the glyptodont centrum I have (and even a horse example I have). It almost looks squished, where the xenarthran examples I've seen (and your example here) have very flat, broad centrums. But I won't rule xenarthran out as a possibility, especially since some differences could be explained by different body position. 

 

WoW,, I did not realize SIZE...

There is a tridactly horse vert with a 20mm centrum in this thread !!!

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/113374-horse-of-course/

 

[Brandy Cole]

@Shellseeker I just looked back over my pictures and realized that's my fault that the size is unclear.  In the pictures I used above, either the camera or the vertebra was angled, which creates some distortion and makes the centrum look much larger than it is.

 

I may need to enlist my husband to take pictures while I hold a ruler right up to the centrum and post those.

[Brandy Cole]

@Shellseeker

I just took these photos with an eye toward accurately depicting the width and depth of the centrum instead of trying to get the best view of facets.

 

The centrum is roughly 1.5 inches wide and about 1 inch tall.  That was another difference with the horse vertebrae I've found.  The horse centrums looked to be a little taller than they were wide.  But as @JohnJ said, it could all depend on position.

 

[JohnJ]

Another brighter photo quartering into the caudal side showing those small facets relative to the centrum might help.  

[Brandy Cole]

@JohnJ

 

This view?

[Brandy Cole]

Here is another that may show features a little better.

 

[fossilus]

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015024037387&view=1up&seq=11&skin=2021 

The felididae of rancho la brea.

 

I have posted this link before, but this paper is valuable if you think that you may have something from smilodon or lion.  My impression is that this may be too small and the centrum too flat, but you should compare for yourself.  There is nothing like holding a bone in your hand to compare it to the photos and measurements in a paper. 

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

Here is another that may show features a little better.

I think this photos includes your differentiators:

and this photo of my Tridactyl  seems similar.... maybe... maybe not

 

[Shellseeker]

14 hours ago, fossilus said:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015024037387&view=1up&seq=11&skin=2021 

The felididae of rancho la brea.

 

I have posted this link before, but this paper is valuable if you think that you may have something from smilodon or lion.  My impression is that this may be too small and the centrum too flat, but you should compare for yourself.  There is nothing like holding a bone in your hand to compare it to the photos and measurements in a paper. 

It is a very informative paper,  with excellent illustrations.  Thank you

Here is one: It lacks the round facets to the upper left & right of the centrum.  This is lumbar... I do not know if the facets exist on other Vertebra positions of these big cats.