Unknown Bone Valley Vertebra

[Shellseeker]

My only time out Fossil Hunting in the last 2 months was October 20th..  A great day, very relaxing. The water in the creek was deep and fast,  so I did not come up with my usual quantity or quality. That is a Rostral tooth, a Vertebra, and a smattering of small teeth,  some colorful.

 

Here is one worth sharing,  small and pretty. I imagine micro fossil hunters are used to seeing such treasures.  Most just slip thru my screens.

 

What I am attempting to do  is ID the Vertebra... It is from a small animal,  maybe 50-75 pounds based on size of the Vert. Because of flatness,  I think it is likely a caudal vert.

From my own knowledge,  it is not horse, bison, sloth,  gator/croc, not dolphin or manatee.  I think I will start by looking at Armadillo tail verts.

Possible a member familiar with US Southeast fossil vertebrae  will recognize and cut my search short... 

Thanks for any and all assistance.   Jack

[sixgill pete]

Jack, that little Hemi is a gem. Beautiful tooth!!

[Shellseeker]

@digit

 

Ken,  I read that there were lots of Florida Gar verts at Montbrook... but could not find a decent photo...

[JohnJ]

Jack, are you sure that is not a reptile vertebra?

[Shellseeker]

42 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Jack, are you sure that is not a reptile vertebra?

Not sure of very much... Just that my hunting location is mostly miocene marine,  and that the attachment points (broken) seem very similar  to the vertebra identified in this thread.

This gave me a possibility to explore...  Could it be Gar... like "E" below....

[JohnJ]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Not sure of very much...

 

I'm not sure either, but the internal structure reminds me of reptile bone.

[Shellseeker]

On 11/28/2022 at 1:33 PM, JohnJ said:

 

I'm not sure either, but the internal structure reminds me of reptile bone.

Reptile,  John... but this is the Peace river,  Croc fossils are scarce! so that leaves us with gator and I have not seen a gator vert that looks like this...

But this one is odd,   but familiar also.... like I have seen it before.  It is like an itch I can not scratch. I'll return and stare at it...  What exactly is Odd....?

I have seen similar bottoms before... wings going out the sides,  and supports dropping from the bottom. A slightly protruding centrum going up, and slightly intruding centrum going down...

It is the top that is different...!!!!

Protruding centrum going up,  and intruding centurm going down,,, but zero attachments points for either supports or wings.

and what exactly is that mound in the center ?  If I can find another small vert that has that mound,  we will have solved the puzzle.

 

 

So, I started searching the internet and this forum for Alligator Gar ( that was the path @Troodon started me down, with photos of Hell Creek Gars)

 

Seemed like I had been down this path before with a similar small vert...

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/110505-vertebra-shark-fish-or-gator/

Unfortunately,  I did not include a photo of the top of the vert.....  but @digit linked to a similar vert in a 2015 Fossil ID request   !!!!

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/54850-unknown-vertebra/

 

and there it was .... the same mound running between the centrums    !!!!  A MATCH !!!!  found in SW Florida by @whowat13 and confirmed as Garfish Vertebra...

 

I scratched that itch,  John.

[digit]

So hard to infer much on a very worn vert like the one in question. The texture does not strike me as fishy. Virtually all fish vertebrae are amphicoelous (concave on both ends) with exceptions for ancient fishes like gars which are opisthocoelous as you well know from previous gar discovery conversations like this:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/110505-vertebra-shark-fish-or-gator/

 

The find back in 2020 was clearly a worn gar vert but this new one seems to large and too cancellous to be a super large gar vert. (IMHO)

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

6 hours ago, digit said:

So hard to infer much on a very worn vert like the one in question. The texture does not strike me as fishy. Virtually all fish vertebrae are amphicoelous (concave on both ends) with exceptions for ancient fishes like gars which are opisthocoelous as you well know from previous gar discovery conversations like this:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/110505-vertebra-shark-fish-or-gator/

 

The find back in 2020 was clearly a worn gar vert but this new one seems to large and too cancellous to be a super large gar vert. (IMHO)

Cheers. -Ken

Ken,  Definitely understand. It would be a lot better if both the scientific and amateur communities produced more and better photos of Alligator Gar Vertebrae..

Atractosteus spatula Vert 3 in figure 4 above seems to be implying a size of 5 cm !!!! and the single image on the UF Collections DB have a size slightly over 3 cm.

 

So, I have a vert to ID that is opisthocoelous, has exactly 4 attachment points, and is slightly over 3 cm.

So far the only possibility that has photos on the internet is Atractosteus spatula.  I would absolutely loved to have found a reptile vert from the Pliocene of Florida that compares this closely to Atractosteus spatula. But the fact that there are no candidates seems to beg the question.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

An interesting blog entry that relates to the topic

https://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2022/05/11/2-miocene-aged-fossil-sites-in-florida/

 

Quote

Fossils from the Thomas Farm site are estimated to be 18 million years old or early Miocene. The site was discovered in 1931 when Raeford Thomas dug a well into an ancient sinkhole. Clarence Simpson of the Florida Geological Society looked through the dirt dug up from the well-drilling and was the first to catalogue fossils at the site. The site has been studied off and on ever since, and scientists consider it the best North American Miocene-aged site east of the Mississippi. Paleontologists list 1 species of fish, 12 species of amphibians, 23 species of reptiles, over 27 species of birds, and 40 species of mammals from the fossil evidence left here. Most notable among the reptile fossils are an extinct boa constrictor (Boa barbouri), and an extinct alligator (Alligator olseni). Boa constrictors are now restricted to southwestern North America south to South America, but they were widespread across North America during the warmer Miocene. Olsen’s alligator was somewhat smaller than modern alligators. None of the bird fossils found here have been diagnosed to the species or even genus level.

I am wondering if I can find a photo of a Boa barbouri Vertebra on the internet.

 

[Brandy Cole]

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Specimens-of-Thomas-Farm-compared-with-the-extant-Boa-constrictor-Note-differences_fig8_323581468

 

I expect you've already found this but just in case.  @Shellseeker

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Brandy Cole
For clarity

[Shellseeker]

23 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Specimens-of-Thomas-Farm-compared-with-the-extant-Boa-constrictor-Note-differences_fig8_323581468

 

I expect you've already found this but just in case.  @Shellseeker

 

Thanks,  Brandy....

I was out of pocket , yesterday.... which roughly translates to sitting on the bank of a creek having found some megs and 3 toeds, reading your post around noon. Late Wednesday,  I had seen this photo  of the Boa from Thomas Farm but needed to get to sleep for an early morning wake_up. 

I have always had this failing.... I must complete, just like in the Accountant Movie...

I feel that this vert is identifiable....

So, if it comes from a reptile (Croc, lizard, turtle, snake, etc )  from the Miopliocene of Florida,  let me go back into the available research and fossil internet, convincing myself that it not a vert from one of those reptiles. 

Many times I never find the answer,  but the knowledge picked up in the search, and the few times I find the answer,  make the search worthwhile.