Shellseeker Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 Went hunting Thursday. Found a couple of Megs, some small horse teeth, dermal denticles, barracuda teeth, and a bunch of small shark teeth *(Sand Tigers, Bull.Dusky, Hemis, Lemons). The only Horse tooth in decent shape is a lower right cheek tooth. Mostly, I find Nannippus, either aztecus or less frequently westoni. Here is a recent aztecus for comparison to this new find. The new tooth: @fossillarry 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 @fossillarry Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 4, 2022 Author Share Posted December 4, 2022 This tooth seems not to have a Protostylid. The very large majority of small horses in Bone Valley 6-12 mya had a protostylid. One of the few that did not was Nannippus minor, renamed to Nannippus aztecus. This new lower tooth, lacking a protostylid, would imply N. aztecus. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 4 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: This tooth seems not to have a Protostylid. The very large majority of small horses in Bone Valley 6-12 mya had a protostylid. One of the few that did not was Nannippus minor, renamed to Nannippus aztecus. This new lower tooth, lacking a protostylid, would imply N. aztecus. Jack - do you have an example of N. westoni with the protostylid for comparison? I trust you here - but the diagram does a poor job of showcasing what a protostylid looks like to untrained eyes, and i'd love to see for future reference! Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 4, 2022 Author Share Posted December 4, 2022 4 hours ago, Meganeura said: Jack - do you have an example of N. westoni with the protostylid for comparison? I trust you here - but the diagram does a poor job of showcasing what a protostylid looks like to untrained eyes, and i'd love to see for future reference! Daniel, Not sure where the TFF thread is... but Larry is the man. He provided this photo... I try to copy everything that I learn on TFF to my local disk... All 4 are Bone Valley teeth... 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 27 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Daniel, Not sure where the TFF thread is... but Larry is the man. He provided this photo... I try to copy everything that I learn on TFF to my local disk... All 4 are Bone Valley teeth... Is it this circle here that I circled in red? Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 4, 2022 Author Share Posted December 4, 2022 Westoni is on the right with protostylid. The question I am asking is whether aztecus is the ONLY small horse from 6-12 mya that does NOT have a protostylid. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 Just now, Shellseeker said: Westoni is on the right with protostylid. The question I am asking is whether aztecus is the ONLY small horse from 6-12 mya that does NOT have a protostylid. Oh, the photo is not attached to the comment then - okay, that makes more sense. I appreciate the clarification and the help - sorry for stealing the topic too! I'm sure Larry will be able to answer once he gets the chance. Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 4, 2022 Author Share Posted December 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Meganeura said: Oh, the photo is not attached to the comment then - okay, that makes more sense. I appreciate the clarification and the help - sorry for stealing the topic too! I'm sure Larry will be able to answer once he gets the chance. Sorry, I flipped the photo and did not say that... the comment IS associated with the photo. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 4, 2022 Share Posted December 4, 2022 Just now, Shellseeker said: Sorry, I flipped the photo and did not say that... the comment IS associated with the photo. Ah, that makes much more sense! Okay, very noticeable now then. Thanks Jack! Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 Usually if I have a little time , I keep working on the identification. and improve the photo, especially as I noted what seems to be a silica druzy on the surface... I also went to Hulbert's book, The Fossil Vertebrates of Florida, right bottom corner of pg 292 has some drawings of lower N. aztecus cheek teeth. None have protostylids, BB, a lower right m1 or m2 seems to be a match. One of my concerns in Identification is the size of this new tooth... APL 16.3 mm, TRW 11.0 mm. A couple of years back, Richard Hulbert identified this tooth as N. aztecus lower left m2. At APL 11.5 mm, TRW 7 mm, that is a big size difference. Are both teeth from the same species? The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 6 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Usually if I have a little time , I keep working on the identification. and improve the photo, especially as I noted what seems to be a silica druzy on the surface... I also went to Hulbert's book, The Fossil Vertebrates of Florida, right bottom corner of pg 292 has some drawings of lower N. aztecus cheek teeth. None have protostylids, BB, a lower right m1 or m2 seems to be a match. One of my concerns in Identification is the size of this new tooth... APL 16.3 mm, TRW 11.0 mm. A couple of years back, Richard Hulbert identified this tooth as N. aztecus lower left m2. At APL 11.5 mm, TRW 7 mm, that is a big size difference. Are both teeth from the same species? The APLs and TRWs on my N. Aztecus lower teeth are: 15.5x8.3 13.4x8.1 13.8x9.0 15.1x9.6 (This one is a premolar as ID’d by Larry) So your original that was ID’d by Hulbert is the outlier here! Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 4 hours ago, Meganeura said: So your original that was ID’d by Hulbert is the outlier here! So, we have a tooth that is significantly smaller than others we have found that we believe to be N. aztecus, yet it does not have a protostylid !!!!! What does that imply ? Here is what Richard Hulbert wrote in a 1993 paper... OR, it might imply that this tooth is a very juvenile N. aztecus, and that the range of Aztecus teeth can include APLs spanning 11 to 17 mm.. Exciting... looking forward to Larry's or @Harry Pristis insights.. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 6, 2022 Share Posted December 6, 2022 Identifying these little horse teeth wearies me. I did get Hulbert's help before he bailed. I've got a N. elachistus to photograph. Here are a couple for comparison: Pseudhipparion skinneri v 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted December 6, 2022 Author Share Posted December 6, 2022 16 hours ago, Harry Pristis said: Identifying these little horse teeth wearies me. I did get Hulbert's help before he bailed. I've got a N. elachistus to photograph. Here are a couple for comparison: Thanks, Harry. your postings facilitate and support the direction I am going. Protostylid is a new concept for me, and useful for differentiating the species that I find. I am also considering the "size" differences within a species. I have never thought of putting a deciduous next to the replacement adult tooth for a species of horse. So much to learn , so little time... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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