Skull found near Grand Tower Illinois

[Godrel]

My dad found this skull in the Mississippi River on a gravel island that has since disappeared. He says it was identified as a cave bear skull from the pliocene Era but he is not quite sure if that's what the person said as it was a very long time ago. Any help identifying this would be greatly appreciated 

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Wow...now that is a nice find. So awesome to see a canine still attached. 

[Ludwigia]

It certainly does look like one to me.

[fossilus]

If it was found on the Mississippi river it would be a black bear skull most likely.

The other choice would be short faced bear, but my first impression says that it looks more like black bear.

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Out of curiosity...does it have any mineralization to it...like does it feel heavier than you would expect a similar fresh dead skull to be?

[Godrel]

I dont believe so, It feels quite normal

[MarcoSr]

Looks like a bear skull to me.  It helps with an ID to know the size like the skull size, canine size.  Post pictures next to a ruler (not chair, beer can, pen, phone etc.).

 

Marco Sr.

[Mahnmut]

Great bear skull!

Cave bears (Ursus spelaeus) did not live in the americas though.

There will be an american bear expert arround shortly I´ll bet.

Best Regards,

J

[MarcoSr]

The below picture/text is from https://outdoors-international.com/how-to-measure-a-bear-skull/.  It lists the four extant North American bears and will give you an idea of their relative and maximum skull size.  What is your skull's measurements?

 

 

 

 

 

 

From https://www.boone-crockett.org/bc-worlds-record-black-bear, https://www.boone-crockett.org/bc-worlds-record-grizzly-bear, https://www.boone-crockett.org/bc-worlds-record-alaska-brown-bear, and https://www.boone-crockett.org/bc-worlds-record-polar-bear

 

 

B&C World's Record - Black Bear

SCORE: 23 10/16
LOCATION: Sanpete County, Utah
HUNTER: Picked Up
OWNER: Cabela's, Inc.
DATE: 1975

 

B&C World's Record - Grizzly Bear

SCORE: 27 13/16
LOCATION: Lone Mountain, Alaska
HUNTER: Picked Up
OWNER: Gordon E. Scott
DATE: 1976

 

B&C World's Record - Alaska Brown Bear

SCORE: 30 12/16
LOCATION: Kodiak Island, Alaska
HUNTER: Roy Lindsley
OWNER: Los Angeles Co. Museum
DATE: 1952

 

B&C World's Record - Polar Bear

SCORE: 29 15/16
LOCATION: Kotzebue, Alaska
HUNTER: Shelby Longoria
OWNER: Shelby Longoria
DATE: 1963

 

Marco Sr.

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

I'm no expert but I've been looking at 3d images online at bear skulls to compare this to and while the underneath of the sample skull looks familiar with a black bear skull...comparing pictures of the top of the skull and the shape with those forehead lines in the 6th picture (not sure what it's called) neither black bear nor brown bear match up. To me.  But it does match with a short faced bear.. Arctodus Simus. I know, I know that bear was huge and I'm probably off...but the shape is the only thing I can compare it to without the size available. Could be a juvenile if it's smaller. Please correct me if I'm wrong but that 3d image seems correct to me. Look forward to thoughts. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by johnnyvaldez7.jv

[jdp]

Short faced bear could be right; there are a couple of species and this could be the smaller one. There are other poorly known tremarctines in North America so it could ostensibly be one of those. If it's any of those, this is a pretty rare fossil, and I'm unsure of whether there is a bear like this even known from Illinois and if so if the material known is in this nice a condition. I can ask around but my sense is that this is actually pretty important scientifically if you're interested in going that route.

[Godrel]

I will post some pictures with measurements when I get time

[Mahnmut]

Hello again,

as much as I would like this one to be a short faced bear, I think you got yourself a brown bear.

I come to this conclusion by comparing the silhouettes without knowing the size.

Here are my sources and result:

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/black-bear-skull-85f5ec1643244f02af59342f631a75b3

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/short-faced-bear-arctodus-simus-da0dcfdf2aa84b0ab3384d12f39fa19a

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/brown-bear-skull-e01dc94d20df4b888c7a6979bffb45a9

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/ursus-arctos-horribilis-grizzly-bear-skull-cf2e2c79fca245998b9f4d843b8057c1

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/cave-bear-skull-4662301761574d03ab305eb17cf7f12c

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/polar-bear-skull-30b05de8182d41a5918ad0a5721f6aa2

I left out the polar and cave bear for reasons of geography and inserted the grizzly later, so the uppermost silhouette is the Brown bear and best fit in my eyes.

Maybe the missing incisors make it look shorter than it used to be?

 

Best Regards, and my best wishes to those suffering from the cold!

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Mahnmut
correction

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Please forgive my lack of scientific terms:

I guess the reason I chose the short faced bear was from looking at the top views. The brown bear has a longer snout but a similar brain case and missing the I guess its foramen holes around the eye sockets in the 3d view...the black bear has a brain case "line" (no idea the term) towards the end and just seems rounder or wider there vs. narrower  like the subject skull and the short faced bear. Either way its still a cool find. It has a nice color to it as well. (Sorry...Red lines drawn roughly off of my phone)

[jdp]

Def not black bear based on the eyes alone.

[Godrel]

Here are some pics with measurements 

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

I really enjoy trying to solve this one here. It's tough. First I can't find any Arctodus Pristinus 3d skulls to compare so I've stuck with the Arctodus Simus and the Brown bear.

In the front view the Arctodus and the subject skull seem much more alike to me than the brown bear which seems to have a slimmer nose and bridge...even the forehead area seems more defined.  The nasal opening is both larger in the Arctodus 3d image and the subject skull. Plus, no matter how much I move the 3d image around I can't make that nasal opening any bigger. But I'm no bear expert. The side view and the top are already in my previous post... still can't get past the holes (foramen?) in the eye cavity on the brown bear the subject skull doesn't have. I dunno. There are some things that do match up tho.  But I eagerly await for the pros to respond.  

Edited December 29, 2022 by johnnyvaldez7.jv

[Mahnmut]

Hi again, I am not a bear expert either.

The lateral silhoutte of the brown bear seemed to be a very good fit, and Arctodus simus with its steep front much less so.

But from the other perspectives I see your point. Maybe there is sexual dimorphism , with females showing a less pronounced "Arctodus shape"?

I actually do know nothing about A. pristinus.

So I think taking it to a museum might be a good idea after all.

Curious to hear where this leads!

Best Regards,

J

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Mahnmut
spelling

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

Yes. Definitely take it to a museum. Hopefully they have something in hand to get a positive ID. Whatever it is...it's still a really cool find and something to admire. Man I wanna find a skull this nice from a big, cool omnivore as this bear...even better a carnivore! It's these kinds of discoveries that get posted by TFF members that really makes me wanna get out there and go further and hunt places I haven't yet hunted. There are gravel banks exposed with really nice specimens just waiting to be discovered. I'm excited to see what this next year brings in what I find and what others here post. 

Good find by your dad and keep us updated on your results. 

[Jared C]

@Harry Pristis

[fossilus]

A couple of thoughts. We need to look at the range of grizzly/brown bears vs the skull above.

Also, even though this may be in the area that Arctodus has been found, my guess is that you would find 10,000 (or more) black bear skulls for even one partial Arctodus.

You need to get it checked by someone with access to the right literature, but I wouldn't get my hopes too high.

Edited December 29, 2022 by fossilus
Spelling

[Harry Pristis]

It might be easier to identify the skull based on the teeth.  The likeliest ID is that the skull is from a modern black bear -- a "floater" from somewhere north.

 

 

 

 

[jdp]

On 12/25/2022 at 7:14 PM, jdp said:

Short faced bear could be right; there are a couple of species and this could be the smaller one. There are other poorly known tremarctines in North America so it could ostensibly be one of those. If it's any of those, this is a pretty rare fossil, and I'm unsure of whether there is a bear like this even known from Illinois and if so if the material known is in this nice a condition. I can ask around but my sense is that this is actually pretty important scientifically if you're interested in going that route.

 

Just want to emphasize that this is my professional assessment of the taxonomy. This is not a black bear or grizzly.

[Harry Pristis]

7 hours ago, jdp said:

 

Just want to emphasize that this is my professional assessment of the taxonomy. This is not a black bear or grizzly.

Our problem here is that you expect us to accept your "professional assessment" without evidence.  This forum requires evidence, particularly when there is a disputed identification.  Opinions are like belly-buttons; everybody's got one.  If you are certain that the skull is Tremarctos, show us your evidence.  

 

I still think that this is a black bear skull.  The bear may have floated down the Mississippi or down the Big Muddy out of the Shawnee National Forest.  Here are images of a Florida specimen with some measurements for Godrel to consider:

 

[johnnyvaldez7.jv]

I still think the black bear skull (braincase) seems to be too bulbous or rounder than the subject skull.  So I'm personally between the brown bear and an arctodus type but I'm still searching  to try and prove my case. I won't be disappointed if I'm proven wrong...I'm learning everyday from this forum. I'm just excited for the member with the skull. Cool stuff.