Sacrum vert - Peace River

[Meganeura]

Hey everyone! Found this sacrum vertebra last weekend. It measures 4.3 inches/109mm x 2.5 inches/63mm. I know it’s mammalian, I know it’s a sacrum vert, and I know it’s from a somewhat larger animal, but that’s about it. Any further direction or IDs would be awesome! @Shellseeker @Harry Pristis @Brandy Cole

[Shellseeker]

This one Identified as Equus,  about 7 inches across OR maybe Llama

[Meganeura]

5 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

This one Identified as Equus,  about 7 inches across

So I can at least rule out Equus. Size is definitely similar (Mine would probably be 6-7 inches with the side processes intact), but shape is different.

 

Actually following that thread I think I can rule out perrisodactyls as a whole - mine definitely matches the shape of artiodactyls much more. Too big to be deer though. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Meganeura

[Brandy Cole]

I've attached some pictures of my camelid sacrum for comparison.

 

Also, I found this video helpful.

https://youtu.be/akSOOTRChoQ

 

[Meganeura]

2 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

I've attached some pictures of my camelid sacrum for comparison.

 

Also, I found this video helpful.

https://youtu.be/akSOOTRChoQ

 

First of all, that thing is gorgeous. Wow.

 

Second - definitely seems comparable to mine, just mine being smaller. 

[Brandy Cole]

Thanks!  It's one of my favorite finds.  So much more intact than most of what I find and the color stayed vivid even after it dried.

 

The height and shapes of the 'shoulders' of the piece seem to be one of the biggest distinct characteristics between the species.  That's shown at the tops of the last collage here. 

 

The other key distinctions between sacrums were whether the full body narrows as it progresses or remains parallel, whether the spinous processes were fused, and size and locations of foramen.  Some of those characteristics are missing from yours due to wear.

 

But it does seem like mine may have an extra foramen that you're missing, seen in the center of the last collage.  But it may be that yours was broken right at that particular area.

 

[Meganeura]

5 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

Thanks!  It's one of my favorite finds.  So much more intact than most of what I find and the color stayed vivid even after it dried.

 

The height and shapes of the 'shoulders' of the piece seem to be one of the biggest distinct characteristics between the species.  That's shown at the tops of the last collage here. 

 

The other key distinctions between sacrums were whether the full body narrows as it progresses or remains parallel, whether the spinous processes were fused, and size and locations of foramen.  Some of those characteristics are missing from yours due to wear.

 

But it does seem like mine may have an extra foramen that you're missing, seen in the center of the last collage.  But it may be that yours was broken right at that particular area.

 

Yeah mine is broken right there unfortunately. I’m hoping that it’s not too much of a diagnostic feature - but if it is, so be it. 

[Brandy Cole]

If I remember correctly from back when I was trying to ID mine, the camelid 'shoulders'  arch up steeply to make  two points fairly close together.  *I know 'shoulders' isn't the correct term, but I can't remember what they're called.

 

Compare that to the equus example from @Shellseeker, where there's a greater span between the high points.

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Brandy Cole
For clarity

[Meganeura]

Just now, Brandy Cole said:

If I remember correctly from back when I was trying to ID mine, the camelid 'shoulders'  arch up steeply to make  two points fairly close together.  *I know 'shoulders' isn't the correct term, but I can't remember what they're called.

 

Compare that to the equus example from @Shellseeker, where the arch occurs more gradually and there's a greater span between the high points.

 

Interestingly enough - Jack’s find was identified as Paleolama and not Equus, by Hulbert

[Brandy Cole]

Well, I could be utterly incorrect then!

[Brandy Cole]

What I used to ID mine was the YouTube video above.

 

Primarily the difference between horse at around timestamp 1:30 and camel at 13:36.

[Brandy Cole]

Now that you mention it, I see how the piece that @Shellseeker has was also distinct from horse. 

 

Equus has those narrow flat wings instead of the two humps with a U or V-shape between them.  

 

So I see why Jack's would be more likely to be camelid also, even though his piece differs some from mine. The foramen in camelid also appear wider than those of horse.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Brandy Cole
Left out important description

[Meganeura]

9 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

Now that you mention it, I see how the piece that @Shellseeker has was also distinct from horse. 

 

Equus has those narrow flat wings instead of the two humps with a U or V-shape between them.  

 

So I see why Jack's would be more likely to be camelid also, even though his piece differs some from mine. The foramen in camelid also appear wider than those of horse.

Mine seems to match camelid too, but a smaller one, I think. As far as I can tell anyway. 

[Brandy Cole]

I had mine ID'd as camelops hesternus.  I think a small camelid is a likely ID for yours.

[Shellseeker]

 

Not a Florida fauna

Body weight: estimated up to 800 kg (1764 lb)

Shoulder height: 2.2 m (7 ft)

23 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

I had mine ID'd as camelops hesternus.

 

Hemiauchenia (†Hemiauchenia Gervais & Ameghino, 1880)

Order: Artiodactyla

Family: Camelidae

Tribe: Lamini

Size: 2,4 m in length, 170 cm in height, 200-400 kg of weight

Time period: the Miocene - Early Pleistocene (North America and South America)

A typical representative: Hemiauchenia macrocephala (Cope, 1893)

 

Palaeolama (†Palaeolama Gervais, 1869)

Order: Artiodactyla

Family: Camelidae

Tribe: Lamini

Size: 2,1 m in length, 140 cm in height, 190-280 kg of weight

Time period: the Pleistocene of North America and South America (1.8–0.011 Ma)

A typical representative: P. mirifica (Simpson, 1931)

 

 

Looking at Brandy's Camel and the two largest Llama's in the Florida's fauna record, I would speculate my sacrum is a Hemiauchenia macrocephala sacrum.

Interesting discussion....

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, Shellseeker said:

 

Not a Florida fauna

Body weight: estimated up to 800 kg (1764 lb)

Shoulder height: 2.2 m (7 ft)

 

Hemiauchenia (†Hemiauchenia Gervais & Ameghino, 1880)

Order: Artiodactyla

Family: Camelidae

Tribe: Lamini

Size: 2,4 m in length, 170 cm in height, 200-400 kg of weight

Time period: the Miocene - Early Pleistocene (North America and South America)

A typical representative: Hemiauchenia macrocephala (Cope, 1893)

 

Palaeolama (†Palaeolama Gervais, 1869)

Order: Artiodactyla

Family: Camelidae

Tribe: Lamini

Size: 2,1 m in length, 140 cm in height, 190-280 kg of weight

Time period: the Pleistocene of North America and South America (1.8–0.011 Ma)

A typical representative: P. mirifica (Simpson, 1931)

 

 

Looking at Brandy's Camel and the two largest Llama's in the Florida's fauna record, I would speculate my sacrum is a Hemiauchenia macrocephala sacrum.

Interesting discussion....

I’d say that would put mine at Paleolama - it’s not too much smaller than yours (Or wouldn’t be with the processes intact), but it definitely is somewhat smaller. 

[Brandy Cole]

@Shellseeker Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Daniel's was a camelops.  I just meant that his appeared similar enough to mine to be a small camelid of some type.  I wasn't sure if camelops was present if Florida or not.

 

I believe that camelops was the best ID for mine based on its relative size and the location where I found it.  Camelops hesternus fossils have been pretty common finds at Pleistocene sites here in the Texas gulf coastal plains.  And mine seemed to match well with the few photographs I could find of a camelops sacrum online.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Brandy Cole said:

@Shellseeker Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Daniel's was a camelops.  I just meant that his appeared similar enough to mine to be a small camelid of some type.  I wasn't sure if camelops was present if Florida or not.

 

I believe that camelops was the best ID for mine based on its relative size and the location where I found it.  Camelops hesternus fossils have been pretty common finds at Pleistocene sites here in the Texas gulf coastal plains.  And mine seemed to match well with the few photographs I could find of a camelops sacrum online.

You have a gorgeous find,  Brandy.  I only wish that I had Camelops hesternus fossils to find in Florida.

 

I have been looking for fossils from this Camel, but no luck yet... I wonder if @Harry Pristis has any of these fossils in his Collection... After all, Harry was hunting the Peace River before I arrived..

[Meganeura]

3 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

You have a gorgeous find,  Brandy.  I only wish that I had Camelops hesternus fossils to find in Florida.

 

I have been looking for fossils from this Camel, but no luck yet... I wonder if @Harry Pristis has any of these fossils in his Collection... After all, Harry was hunting the Peace River before I arrived..

There’s a lot of very interesting animals that I’ve found listed on the FLMNH website and in the book by Hulbert that I never see fossils of. Like that one antelope thing that had 6 short, sharp, antlers.