Amarykah Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 18 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Daniel, I am not that good on uppers versus lowers, especially on peccary which is an infrequent find. My tendency here was to think "lower jaw" because of the width of the jaw and lack of breakage on either side of the jaw. I now it is not exactly equivalent, but here is a Capybara maxilla that has skull material around the teeth, What do you think Amarykah ? Can the tooth you found "fit" into the Alveoli you have? If not , I think the Alveoli contained a pre_molar, maybe just one number down.. Another thing that we could find out. What Peccaries existed in the Florida fossil record. Do you have a secret spot that contains Miocene age fossils? Do NOT answer that.... 2 minutes ago, Meganeura said: She’s certainly got a secret spot! Glyptodon tooth. Sloth tooth. Peccary jaw. Ha! Hehe sounds like you’re keeping track of my finds! The peccary jaw came from a very different spot (from someone’s discard pile!) The rest of my finds came from my secret spot and no one told me about said spot so it’s all mine! Muahahahaaaa but I would possibly take u to mine if u don’t go back without me AND if u take me to yours and I won’t go there without u! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meganeura Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 Just now, Amarykah said: Hehe sounds like you’re keeping track of my finds! The peccary jaw came from a very different spot (from someone’s discard pile!) The rest of my finds came from my secret spot and no one told me about said spot so it’s all mine! Muahahahaaaa but I would possibly take u to mine if u don’t go back without me AND if u take me to yours and I won’t go there without u! Honestly I’m always happy to have new people to go out with, so… deal! 2 Fossils? I dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarykah Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 25 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Daniel, I am not that good on uppers versus lowers, especially on peccary which is an infrequent find. My tendency here was to think "lower jaw" because of the width of the jaw and lack of breakage on either side of the jaw. I now it is not exactly equivalent, but here is a Capybara maxilla that has skull material around the teeth, What do you think Amarykah ? Can the tooth you found "fit" into the Alveoli you have? If not , I think the Alveoli contained a pre_molar, maybe just one number down.. Another thing that we could find out. What Peccaries existed in the Florida fossil record. Do you have a secret spot that contains Miocene age fossils? Do NOT answer that.... Alveoli=tooth hole? The empty tooth hole only measures 5.6mm while the “toothed” hole measures 10.8mm. Does that help? I actually was in a spot near Gardner that I never go to (didn’t find much so I won’t likely go back). I’m not sure if there are Miocene fossils there or not based on the “practically nothing” that I found. My actual secret spot does have some Miocene stuff but I’m not posting anything about that spot on here - I know better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Amarykah said: Alveoli=tooth hole? The empty tooth hole only measures 5.6mm while the “toothed” hole measures 10.8mm. Does that help? I actually was in a spot near Gardner that I never go to (didn’t find much so I won’t likely go back). I’m not sure if there are Miocene fossils there or not based on the “practically nothing” that I found. My actual secret spot does have some Miocene stuff but I’m not posting anything about that spot on here - I know better. Yes, Alveoli=tooth hole. It is not perfect, but teeth get smaller as you head to lips of the animal, same as humans. So, you have a tooth with a smaller Alveoli in from of it... that Alveloi used to hold a pre_molar. Miocene ? Gardner ? I may have found a Rhino tooth 8 or 9 years ago . But my mind does wander, it could have been some other place. 16 minutes ago, Meganeura said: Muahahahaaaa but I would possibly take u to mine if u don’t go back without me AND if u take me to yours and I won’t go there without u! That's the covenant. It helps you to find out over time, who your real friends are... and that's a good thing. 1 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarykah Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Yes, Alveoli=tooth hole. It is not perfect, but teeth get smaller as you head to lips of the animal, same as humans. So, you have a tooth with a smaller Alveoli in from of it... that Alveloi used to hold a pre_molar. Miocene ? Gardner ? I may have found a Rhino tooth 8 or 9 years ago . But my mind does wander, it could have been some other place. That's the covenant. It helps you to find out over time, who your real friends are... and that's a good thing. So u think it’s an M1? Or m1? I saw traces of lots of fossils in the Gardner area but it was reeeeally picked over there which is why I said I likely won’t go back. I like trying new places but seems like everywhere new that I try lately has been dug up pretty good. It’s bad enough that when spring break started I saw a tour close to my secret spot partying and trashing the area… I wanted to yell “please watch where you’re walking and don’t crush the fossils!!!” I can pick up all their trash but it breaks my heart to find crushed fossils. I guess I need some more secretive spots 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Amarykah said: So u think it’s an M1? Or m1? I think it is lower jaw , so lower case letters.... Here is a picture of your tooth...marked up. There is one bigger round surface and 2 smaller ones... and then I have this picture of the lower Jaw.. The tooth in the center is the molar "m1". It looks square to me with 4 mound/surfaces instead of 3....Note that it's position is offset from the p3... IF we have a match on Peccary.... your tooth has to be a pre_molar. I think the most likely premolar is the p3....However, the facet I labeled as "red 1" is pointed in the wrong direction... I guess I have to look at the upper jaw premolar OR another Genus.... RATS !!! I wanted it to be easy.. When I have a secret spot, I will not hunt weekends there! Lots more activity on weekends, and the wiser fossil hunter notes where others dig. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarykah Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Shellseeker said: I think it is lower jaw , so lower case letters.... Here is a picture of your tooth...marked up. There is one bigger round surface and 2 smaller ones... and then I have this picture of the lower Jaw.. The tooth in the center is the molar "m1". It looks square to me with 4 mound/surfaces instead of 3....Note that it's position is offset from the p3... IF we have a match on Peccary.... your tooth has to be a pre_molar. I think the most likely premolar is the p3....However, the facet I labeled as "red 1" is pointed in the wrong direction... I guess I have to look at the upper jaw premolar OR another Genus.... RATS !!! I wanted it to be easy.. When I have a secret spot, I will not hunt weekends there! Lots more activity on weekends, and the wiser fossil hunter notes where others dig. Bear with me here but here’s an idea: To me, it looks like my tooth could be p3 and the offset alveoli where the m1 would be IS actually offset (I have to use imagination here but it appears that way to me (even tho it’s missing I can tell where alveoli would be) AND it actually looks like the whole present tooth is damaged and crooked, like it SHOULD point in the same direction as the pic of the jaw shows, but it doesn’t due to previous damage. The tooth and jaw feel extremely stable and sturdy right now, but maybe the peccary was attacked and jaw was broken causing the animal’s death (or by an predator after death) and causing tooth to point in wrong direction. Then it fossilized. That’s a stretch of possibilities but… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Amarykah said: Bear with me here but here’s an idea: To me, it looks like my tooth could be p3 and the offset alveoli where the m1 would be IS actually offset (I have to use imagination here but it appears that way to me (even tho it’s missing I can tell where alveoli would be) AND it actually looks like the whole present tooth is damaged and crooked, like it SHOULD point in the same direction as the pic of the jaw shows, but it doesn’t due to previous damage. The tooth and jaw feel extremely stable and sturdy right now, but maybe the peccary was attacked and jaw was broken causing the animal’s death (or by an predator after death) and causing tooth to point in wrong direction. Then it fossilized. That’s a stretch of possibilities but… So, here is where we started , we did not know very much and your find looked very hard to identify. We have learned a lot, made some progress, but it is still hard to identify.... I think it is Peccary, not Platygonus, but possibly one of the 6 species of Mylohyus that were present in Florida's fossil record. For reasons specified above, I think it is lower jaw... and I think it is a premolar.... Even as Peccary goes, it is a very small tooth... This one is Mylohyus elmorei upper jaw p2-m3 just in case I am wrong 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarykah Posted March 31, 2023 Author Share Posted March 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Shellseeker said: So, here is where we started , we did not know very much and your find looked very hard to identify. We have learned a lot, made some progress, but it is still hard to identify.... I think it is Peccary, not Platygonus, but possibly one of the 6 species of Mylohyus that were present in Florida's fossil record. For reasons specified above, I think it is lower jaw... and I think it is a premolar.... Even as Peccary goes, it is a very small tooth... This one is Mylohyus elmorei upper jaw p2-m3 just in case I am wrong Ha, so alllll the way back to the beginning, where the small size is confusing! I’ll read up on the species of peccaries tomorrow. My guess is that it will be the smallest species. Challenging identifications are so much more fun than easy, normal ones thanks for all of your help I appreciate you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 11 hours ago, Amarykah said: Ha, so alllll the way back to the beginning, where the small size is confusing! I’ll read up on the species of peccaries tomorrow. My guess is that it will be the smallest species. Challenging identifications are so much more fun than easy, normal ones thanks for all of your help I appreciate you! We seem to be coalescing on the size. It is an unusual factor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257618845_Collared_peccary_Mammalia_Artiodactyla_Tayassuidae_Pecari_from_the_late_Pleistocene_of_Florida Quote .. A partial dentary with p4-m3 of a tayassuid was collected from the lowest layer of the deposit with fossils of Pleistocene megafauna. Its teeth are significantly smaller and morphologically different than those of Platygonus and Mylohyus, as well as those from late Miocene and early Pliocene tayassuids and the extant peccaries Catagonus and Tayassu. The best match, in terms of both size and morphology, is the extant collared peccary, Pecari tajacu. Two fossils from other sites in Florida, both isolated m3s, also represent Pecari. Together, the three specimens demonstrate that a third peccary, here referred to Pecari sp., was present in peninsular Florida at some point during the late Pleistocene, and that competitive exclusion by Platygonus and/or Mylohyus was not an overriding factor in the Pleistocene distribution of Pecari. Good hunting... This is the fun part 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarykah Posted March 31, 2023 Author Share Posted March 31, 2023 3 hours ago, Shellseeker said: We seem to be coalescing on the size. It is an unusual factor https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257618845_Collared_peccary_Mammalia_Artiodactyla_Tayassuidae_Pecari_from_the_late_Pleistocene_of_Florida Good hunting... This is the fun part I’m much more informed about peccaries after reading this but I’m still confused with the identification. I noticed from the dentary diagram that the jaw shape appears to most closely resemble the playgonus from the occlusal view…and that the lateral view of the myohylus in that same diagram has a tooth that’s tilted/crooked in the jaw like mine is, but…back to size….. Pecari tajacu??? Maybe we will never know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 1, 2023 Share Posted April 1, 2023 7 hours ago, Amarykah said: I’m much more informed about peccaries after reading this but I’m still confused with the identification. I noticed from the dentary diagram that the jaw shape appears to most closely resemble the playgonus from the occlusal view…and that the lateral view of the myohylus in that same diagram has a tooth that’s tilted/crooked in the jaw like mine is, but…back to size….. Pecari tajacu??? Maybe we will never know! The paper gives us this interesting information... There is a Pecari sp in the Florida Pleistocene record that is MUCH smaller than all the other Florida peccaries. It is Jaw segment "C" below.. with teeth m3,m2,m1,p4 It is the right lower jaw of Pecari .sp.. Compare it the the peccary jaw "B" immediately above.. same numbering left to right m3, m2,m1,p4.... the "p4"s are very different in size.... The pdf also has this table..... The p4 for Pecari .sp is 11.6 mm in length and 8.9 mm in width. Pretty close to your find ??? SO, you could send photos and measurements to the UF Florida Fossil Identification service, saying you think this is a Pecari .sp lower right p4 size 10.7 mm length. They might agree JUST based on the size comparison. Worth a shot 1 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarykah Posted April 22, 2023 Author Share Posted April 22, 2023 On 3/30/2023 at 3:53 PM, Shellseeker said: That's the covenant. It helps you to find out over time, who your real friends are... and that's a good thing. Appears that no one can be trusted to keep their word these days….too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted April 22, 2023 Share Posted April 22, 2023 On 3/30/2023 at 2:53 PM, Shellseeker said: That's the covenant. It helps you to find out over time, who your real friends are... and that's a good thing. Very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted April 24, 2023 Share Posted April 24, 2023 On 4/22/2023 at 1:34 PM, Amarykah said: Appears that no one can be trusted to keep their word these days….too bad. No, I am sorry if I implied that take in my words. Like many other aspects of life there are people who have an honor system and can be trusted, but it is just not everyone. You can not isolate yourself, so you have to reach out and it is a wonderful thing when you find those who surpass your expectations. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now