I can't believe what a piece of #$%^ this is!

[hadrosauridae]

I want your opinions on this piece.  I picked this up today, after knocking it a few times to make sure that it wasn't "fresh".  The surface texture it really rough and funky.  Very much like sandstone and not what I'm used to with fossils here, but the shape... come on, how can this NOT be what it looks like?  Found at my 280MY Permian site.

 

Whats your thoughts?  Is it coprolite, a very grossly shaped natural rock, or should I go wash my hands some more?

 

 

 

 

[Fossildude19]

Any inclusions to be seen?

 

@Carl  @GeschWhat

 

Cropped and rotated:

 

 

[FossilNerd]

11 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Any inclusions to be seen?

This was my first thought as well.

[Carl]

It certainly could be a coprolite but, as others have suggested, it needs stronger backup evidence. Organic inclusions would be a very strong one. I assume this Permian site records bony vertebrate fossils as well? 

[hadrosauridae]

No inclusions that I've seen so far.  If it was a herbivorous it might not have anything visible short of an SEM inspection.  This site records vert fossils extremely well, as well as numerous coprolites from sharks and amphibians.  The shark coprolites are packed with bony material, although its not always visible on the their surface.

 

Inclusions were the thing I looked for when I found it.  Not finding any I almost left it, but them more I looked at its shape, the more it just said "animal feces" to me.

[Vopros]

5 hours ago, Carl said:

I certainly could be a coprolite 

You are definitely could never be a Coprolite

[jdp]

not convinced this is a coprolite, but it might be a chunk of vertebrate bone or skeleton that is preserved with a layer of calcite on top of the bone. Hard to tell.

[JohnJ]

@hadrosauridae what did Chris @dinodigger say?

[hadrosauridae]

16 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

@hadrosauridae what did Chris @dinodigger say?

 

He has never responded to any emails I have sent on previous questions.

[JohnJ]

My mistake;  I thought you recently visited his museum and took a field trip.

[ynot]

I would like to see more pictures from all sides and ends.

Edited April 17, 2023 by ynot

[hadrosauridae]

27 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

My mistake;  I thought you recently visited his museum and took a field trip.

 

I did.  This isnt related to that, this is from my own site.

27 minutes ago, ynot said:

I would like to see more pictures from all sides and ends.

I will try to get more pics posted tonight.

[JohnJ]

6 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

This isnt related to that, this is from my own site.

I understood this is one you discovered.  I just mistakenly assumed that he would have been a wonderful source of Permian vertebrate information for you since you just visited with him.  

[Carl]

18 hours ago, Vopros said:

You are definitely could never be a Coprolite

Ha! All in due time...

[Carl]

21 hours ago, hadrosauridae said:

No inclusions that I've seen so far.  If it was a herbivorous it might not have anything visible short of an SEM inspection.  This site records vert fossils extremely well, as well as numerous coprolites from sharks and amphibians.  The shark coprolites are packed with bony material, although its not always visible on the their surface.

 

Inclusions were the thing I looked for when I found it.  Not finding any I almost left it, but them more I looked at its shape, the more it just said "animal feces" to me.

I was just out there recently, too, and collected lots of coprolites that I certainly wouldn't have recognized earlier. You were at Permian Fest, yes? We probably met. I'd trust whatever the Whiteside people have to say on this one. I'm routing for coprolite, of course!

[hadrosauridae]

3 hours ago, Carl said:

I was just out there recently, too, and collected lots of coprolites that I certainly wouldn't have recognized earlier. You were at Permian Fest, yes? We probably met. I'd trust whatever the Whiteside people have to say on this one. I'm routing for coprolite, of course!

 

Yes, I was there for the Wednesday field trip and the Friday and Saturday lectures.  I thought it was great, I am planning on going to next years.  If we have multiple members attending, we should plan a dinner together or something like that.

[Vopros]

8 hours ago, Carl said:

I was just out there recently, too, and collected lots of coprolites that I certainly wouldn't have recognized earlier. You were at Permian Fest, yes? We probably met. I'd trust whatever the Whiteside people have to say on this one. I'm routing for coprolite, of course!

Carl,

could you please tell me if there are some inclusions in any specimen you found. I tried to buy a coprolite  with inclusions but was unable to find any on the Internet. I wonder how common the inclusions in coprolites are?

[Fossildude19]

22 minutes ago, Vopros said:

Carl,

could you please tell me if there are some inclusions in any specimen you found. I tried to buy a coprolite  with inclusions but was unable to find any on the Internet. I wonder how common the inclusions in coprolites are?

 

 

Here are a few of mine:

 

 

 

 

[Vopros]

14 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Here are a few of mine:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you!

I wonder from all coprolites found, what percentage have inclusions. 

[Carl]

20 hours ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

Yes, I was there for the Wednesday field trip and the Friday and Saturday lectures.  I thought it was great, I am planning on going to next years.  If we have multiple members attending, we should plan a dinner together or something like that.

Absolutely!

[Carl]

15 hours ago, Vopros said:

Carl,

could you please tell me if there are some inclusions in any specimen you found. I tried to buy a coprolite  with inclusions but was unable to find any on the Internet. I wonder how common the inclusions in coprolites are?

Some of the coprolites had fish scales and other bone inclusions inside. But others that had no obvious inclusions from the same site were otherwise were identical so I feel confident they are coprolites as well. Many confidently IDed coprolites lack obvious inclusions and are IDed by other accumulated, sometimes circumstantial, evidence but if they were IDed as coprolites it all falls on the reliability of the person providing the data. If they are eager to sell you something and you don't know them, use extreme caution. Most coprolites offered online are NOT coprolites (i.e., nearly all from Utah or Washington or the ones composed of pyrite). A good spiral structure is a feature that can prove something is a fish coprolite without the presence of inclusions.

[Vopros]

2 hours ago, Carl said:

Some of the coprolites had fish scales and other bone inclusions inside. But others that had no obvious inclusions from the same site were otherwise were identical so I feel confident they are coprolites as well. Many confidently IDed coprolites lack obvious inclusions and are IDed by other accumulated, sometimes circumstantial, evidence but if they were IDed as coprolites it all falls on the reliability of the person providing the data. If they are eager to sell you something and you don't know them, use extreme caution. Most coprolites offered online are NOT coprolites (i.e., nearly all from Utah or Washington or the ones composed of pyrite). A good spiral structure is a feature that can prove something is a fish coprolite without the presence of inclusions.

Could you please tell me how many coprolites did you find and how many of them have inclusions?

Thanks!

[hadrosauridae]

On 4/17/2023 at 3:42 PM, ynot said:

I would like to see more pictures from all sides and ends.

Sorry for the delay, here are additional pics.  4 "sides" plus each end.

 

 

[ynot]

I am going to say I think this is a concretion and not a coprolite. This opinion is based on the multiple textures I can see, where as a coprolite should have only a couple of different textures to it.

[Carl]

On 4/19/2023 at 11:14 AM, Vopros said:

Could you please tell me how many coprolites did you find and how many of them have inclusions?

Thanks!

Hmmmm... Haven't done a count. We hit 3 Permian sites (2 in TX and 1 in OK) - and easily found 100s from each state. The TX ones yielded about 10% with inclusions and the OK site about 50%. The ones without obvious inclusions are confidently IDed as coprolites because of their shape (either resembling ones with inclusions or having spiral morphology known only from fish coprolites), composition, and context.