Keichosaurus, Real Or Fake?

[oilshale]

I've also considered using a solvent as well, still debating...I honestly wouldn't mind if only the paint came off, while it looks like there's quite a bit, I think most of it, other than the phalangal bones is just enhancement...

I'll be updating as the results come in, actually having a bit of fun determining what this is...

You can use one of these solvent based gelly paint strippers (some cellulose ether as thickener and Isopropanol / Methyl ethyl ketone combinations as organic solvent). Do not use paint removers with strong alkalines. The advantage of these gelly paint removers is that they won't spread and do not evaporate so fast. You can apply them on one spot and see what happens.

Thomas

[fossilshk]

Hi, I can see large area of the skeleton is a real things. probably the problems on the skull and tail.

You can add some water with the tissue to wipe it. Sometime the small bones is paint. Thanks.

[Elaphe Pantherophis]

These are pictures of the X-RAYS my buddy did, I wasn't expecting much and neither was he so we we're both surprised by how well they came out.

He put the setting as he would when X-Raying an elbow, dense.

The only 'light table' I have is my computer screen, so they don't show as much as in person.

You can see that the neck, skull and tail are very light, but mostly still show, they also happen to be the areas that are most ground-down on the original fossil.

What I found interesting is that it they show the curvature of the ribs underneath visible ribs,but most importantly they show the complex and heavy sternal bones underneath the skeleton, there is no evidence of these in what is revealed in the existing fossil. ( you wouldn't see any of that if it was "painting bits onto flat clay")

Also, after thorough examination, no real surprise that the phallanges don't show up well, or at all in some of the appendages considering quite a few are painted on.

fossilshk, Thanks for your reply

Edited January 11, 2011 by Elaphe Pantherophis

[Elaphe Pantherophis]

More pics:

( I do still plan on using a blacklight to see what that exposes and plan on removing all paint, permanently.)

[the jeff]

Hi Elaphe. Great to see the x-rays. I haven't had many opportunities to see both fossil and x-ray so it's interesting. I'd be real happy with the result.

Does seeing no fingers and toes mean for sure they're not there or could it be that they are not strong enough to show up?

[Elaphe Pantherophis]

Hi Elaphe. Great to see the x-rays. I haven't had many opportunities to see both fossil and x-ray so it's interesting. I'd be real happy with the result.

Does seeing no fingers and toes mean for sure they're not there or could it be that they are not strong enough to show up?

Thanks Jeff, I'm very happy with the results. Kudos to my buddy!!!

My opinion about the appendage bones is that they are probably mostly there although many of the distal ends are either just too small ( to show on the X-Ray) and buried in substrate, didn't survive the process of fossilization or were ground off and then have been painted back on ( the same may be true for the distal tail and parts of the neck and skull).

If you click on some of the earlier close-ups it's pretty clear quite a few were in fact painted on although some may have been done to enhance what little is there.

***The X-Ray was done at life size, I'm not sure if they can be made to zoom.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Elaphe Pantherophis

[cowsharks]

Dang, and I thought x-raying our bags of candy at Halloween when I was a kid was cool, this is even cooler. I think you just found the new proof-positive way to make sure your Chinese fossils are real, make every seller produce an X-ray of the item to go along with it! I know it might be unrealistic, but if you're laying down good money for a specimen, this might be a sure way to make sure it's real.

I understand your desire to remove all the paint from the areas that were faked or painted on, but to be honest, I think it looks better looking complete. Isay this because I see a lot of fossils that folks prep and those that are in museums, and in order for them to put them together they had to use some sort of fillers like plaster or epoxy etc. These areas are usually left white or painted some other color to differentiate the "restored" portions from the real portions. Maybe you could do the same and just paint the areas such as the digits/phalanges a different color that the rest of the specimen so it would still look complete, but you would know what areas are restored. Just a thought. Good luck with it.

Daryl.

[the jeff]

I'm no paleo and I don't pretend to be so they'll probably stay fingers and toes to me. Apologies. I buy fossils and I must say I wouldn't mind seeing more x-rays being offered with specimens. Especially when they head over $1-2K. Why isn't this common practice I wonder? Surely not the obvious which would be to cover up or rather expose fill or fake parts? I would think x-rays supplied with specimens would achieve a lot in as far as reassurance for potential buyers.

Would anybody know is there anything that won't show in an x-ray? Again here goes some ignorance perhaps but is it only bones that show up? Resin, concrete or anything that else that can pass as bone if x-rayed? Thanks.

Hope I'm not hijacking your thread here Elaphe.

[Auspex]

Staying ahead of the "fabricators" is not that easy; I doubt that altering an X-ray is much of a challenge to the "motivated seller", and neither am I skilled at interpreting X-ray images. There seems to be no end of the ways to be taken, and one's own desires can work against one's judgment. I work on the premise of "recognizing real" instead of "recognizing fake"; considered skepticism and a base of knowledge may serve well, but are not infallible.

[Elaphe Pantherophis]

Hope I'm not hijacking your thread here Elaphe.

Not at all, you bring up an interesting partial solution to fakes.

I think most legitimate sellers might consider it... for a price.

Staying ahead of the "fabricators" is not that easy; I doubt that altering an X-ray is much of a challenge to the "motivated seller", and neither am I skilled at interpreting X-ray images. There seems to be no end of the ways to be taken, and one's own desires can work against one's judgment. I work on the premise of "recognizing real" instead of "recognizing fake"; considered skepticism and a base of knowledge may serve well, but are not infallible.

Agreed, there's "a sucker born every minute" that being said, I could've been one, but as it appears I think it's 95%+ genuine, although I'm sure some could/would still argue that even the hidden bones shown in the X-Ray could be faked ( possibly) and I wonder if the skepticism would've been less if I'd bought it say... from a well known and respected dealer as opposed to where it did come from.

[MikeD]

The x-rays came out much better than I was expecting. Nice to have friends with access to equipment. Seeing the rib curvature was very interesting. I've seen quite a few of these and had thought that yours (or most of it) was real, but hard to say for sure without having it in your hand. I could see where they painted the fingers, but some of the bones went in a different direction than the paint. It's too bad they prep them the way they do. Nice to know you have the real deal.

[piranha]

Congratulations!

You're fortunate to have a friend to assist you with x-rays.

I'm happy to be correct on the initial assessment of 'mostly real'. The wheel marks are the absolute clue to its authenticity in my opinion. When you factor in how ubiquitous these fossils actually are, it just doesn't make sense to fabricate one from thin air. Glad it's settled in your favor! I would reconsider the removal of paint however. The ramifications could spell trouble. As was mentioned here previously, the paint-solvent-matrix recipe could alter the aesthetic of your fossil irreversibly. That would be a shame really. Consider this; nearly all fossil skeletons have parts that have been reconstructed. In fact, many are purposely shown with the areas restored in a different color to faithfully reproduce an accurate scientifically correct fossil. Did you purchase it with the notion of a scientifically correct representation or as a nice fossil to display? For a relatively small investment you acquired a very nice fossil that has been very tastefully augmented to a more than acceptable display standard. And now you have the x-rays to accompany your great purchase!

My best advice .... leave it be for now and enjoy it.

You don't want to reinvent this wheel again, that's for sure!

[skeptical1]

I think it's worth pointing out that lead paint is radiopaque.

[ Like barium in a barium meal. ]

Edited January 11, 2011 by skeptical1

[piranha]

I think it's worth pointing out that lead paint is radiopaque.

[ Like barium in a barium meal. ]

The characteristics of lead paint and x-rays is certainly not in dispute here. That actually further corroborates the integrity of this fossil if you reason that point objectively. Re-examine the photos initially posted. It's quite evident to spot the 'painted' digits for instance. Coincidence that the x-rays now confirm the absence of the painted parts in attempting to evaluate its legitimacy? I'm all for a spirited debate to a reasonable conclusion.

Occam's Razor might be the rational template to apply here ....

[Elaphe Pantherophis]

I understand your desire to remove all the paint from the areas that were faked or painted on, but to be honest, I think it looks better looking complete. Isay this because I see a lot of fossils that folks prep and those that are in museums, and in order for them to put them together they had to use some sort of fillers like plaster or epoxy etc. These areas are usually left white or painted some other color to differentiate the "restored" portions from the real portions. Maybe you could do the same and just paint the areas such as the digits/phalanges a different color that the rest of the specimen so it would still look complete, but you would know what areas are restored. Just a thought. Good luck with it.

Daryl.

Very True thanks Daryl

I would reconsider the removal of paint however. The ramifications could spell trouble. As was mentioned here previously, the paint-solvent-matrix recipe could alter the aesthetic of your fossil irreversibly. That would be a shame really. Consider this; nearly all fossil skeletons have parts that have been reconstructed. In fact, many are purposely shown with the areas restored in a different color to faithfully reproduce an accurate scientifically correct fossil. Did you purchase it with the notion of a scientifically correct representation or as a nice fossil to display? For a relatively small investment you acquired a very nice fossil that has been very tastefully augmented to a more than acceptable display standard. And now you have the x-rays to accompany your great purchase!

My best advice .... leave it be for now and enjoy it.

You don't want to reinvent this wheel again, that's for sure!

Well between Daryl and Piranha, you've both convinced me to leave it as it is, excellent points and well said.

I'm convinced it's real, although still curious to see it in an unaltered fashion... I will leave it exactly as it is.

Thanks guys.

The characteristics of lead paint and x-rays is certainly not in dispute here. That actually further corroborates the integrity of this fossil if you reason that point objectively. Re-examine the photos initially posted. It's quite evident to spot the 'painted' digits for instance. Coincidence that the x-rays now confirm the absence of the painted parts in attempting to evaluate its legitimacy? I'm all for a spirited debate to a reasonable conclusion.

Occam's Razor might be the rational template to apply here ....

I hadn't thought of that, perfectly presented, Kudos to you sir.

* Again, Thanks to everyone that's posted here. I really appreciate all opinions and have been given some great, 'food for thought' and insight into fossil collecting.

[Coco]

Hi,

This file is great ! Congrats for X-rays and your nice fossil.

Coco

[Callistenes]

This is the first fossil I post, a keichosaurus too. I bought it to a reputated seller in Spain through Ebay and it comes from China. As a collector of roman coins, I always thank this kind of forums to find fakes or cloned fossils or coins. What do you think about it? Best regards from Spain.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Callistenes

[oilshale]

Real, no fake!

Thomas