pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Arkona Devonian sediments...... Found this interesting star shaped object size = 1mm.... What is it? Calibrated scale= 3mm diameter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 very interesting The only things that come to mind for me are echinoderms (because of their 5-sided radial symmetry) and foraminifera. Subscribing here to see what thoughts come out about this one . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Gotta' be a Foram...? "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Thanks Guys for the response .. could it be part of Dactylocrinus? http://fossils.valdosta.edu/lists/frameset_pages/home_lists_echino.html Edited January 10, 2011 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Peter, Found this in my searching. Hope it helps. I know the article refers to living - not fossil forams, but may be a jumping off point? Regards, Edited January 10, 2011 by Fossildude19 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Peter, Found this in my searching. Hope it helps. I know the article refers to living - not fossil forams, but may be a jumping off point? Regards, Forams... as Auspex and Mr. Ed. had pointed out.... thanks Tim!!! It does look like a Modern Day critter but this fossil is from the Devonian.... not much has changed and the size is about right 1-2mm range..... another thought... could this simply be a crossection of a crinoid stem.... PL Edited January 10, 2011 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinus Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thanks Guys for the response .. could it be part of Dactylocrinus? http://fossils.valdosta.edu/lists/frameset_pages/home_lists_echino.html There are no Dactylocrinus at Arkona. It is probably from a Decorocrinus (aka Botryocrinus). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 There are no Dactylocrinus at Arkona. It is probably from a Decorocrinus (aka Botryocrinus). Thanks for the insight Crinus! PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 I did show the pictures to museum people and got the following response: "Anything with that kind of regular pentameral symmetry should be of echinoderm origin (as you no doubt know!), but because it's so small and there's no central lumen, a crinoid columnal identity seems unlikely. Dermal sclerites of holothurian echinoderms - the group that includes modern sea cucumbers - are about the right size, but I'm not aware of any that have such a strict stellate morphology. One thing that concerns me a little is the mineralogy of the piece ... it doesn't look calcitic, which would be the case if it comes from an echinoderm. Instead, it has a kind of siliceous appearance, so I'm not ruling out an aberrant sponge spicule as a remote possibility (sponges don't normally have pentamerous spicules)." So mystery item remains.... PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Thanks Guys for the response .. could it be part of Dactylocrinus? http://fossils.valdosta.edu/lists/frameset_pages/home_lists_echino.html Funny.....why do they have a Trilobozoan (eurypterus) and another arthropod (Tribranchidium) on their echinoderm page? Anyway... This piece seems more translucent than I'm used to seeing in crinoid fossils. It's much more like some of the forams or diatoms (though it may be too big for a diatom) I've seen. Do we have any actual crinoid examples (columnal or other) that have this translucent appearance? Edited January 11, 2011 by Mr. Edonihce . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 Funny.....why do they have a Trilobozoan (eurypterus) and an arthropod (Tribranchidium) on their echinoderm page? Anyway... This piece seems more translucent than I'm used to seeing in crinoid fossils. It's much more like some of the forams or diatoms (though it may be too big for a diatom) I've seen. Do we have any actual crinoid examples (columnal or other) that have this translucent appearance? I don't recall seeing translucent crinoid sections in my collection.... when I get home I will post what the star fossil looks like when dry compare to wet.... the image shown is taken with the star fossil submerged in a film of water to change the refractive index.... and bring out the details.... when wetted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) This is what the fossil looks like prior to wetting.... Lower bottom right is a crinoid crossection.... est. 0.75mm is size. And now hydrated ... Edited January 11, 2011 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Wow what great pics Pleecan! could you post a note with respect to the photographic details? Your macro/micro pics are really clear. I've been following in the photography forum and appreciate your 'candidness' I don't suppose starfish fry looked like starfish? It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xonenine Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Funny.....why do they have a Trilobozoan (eurypterus) and an arthropod (Tribranchidium) on their echinoderm page? Anyway... This piece seems more translucent than I'm used to seeing in crinoid fossils. It's much more like some of the forams or diatoms (though it may be too big for a diatom) I've seen. Do we have any actual crinoid examples (columnal or other) that have this translucent appearance? Yeah, I felt quite the idiot wondering why those others were there funny to hear you ask bout translucent crinoid, I spent 3 or 4 hours cleaning one this afternoon.'Course when I finally tried to shoot it, it was dark, and the pics are unsatisfactory. As far as the star, I have alot of crinoids that are the perfect shape and size to have made this, but I've never seen a hint of calcification in those hollows, so I hope it's something else. Edited January 11, 2011 by xonenine "Your serpent of Egypt is bred now of your mud by the operation of your sun; so is your crocodile." Lepidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 This is what the fossil looks like prior to wetting.... Lower bottom right is a crinoid crossection.... est. 0.75mm is size. And now hydrated ... Cool. Thanks for the two conditions. So, not for argument, but just for clarification....do you have positive ID of that roundish item bottom-center-right being crinoid columnal, or is that conjecture based on formation and/or proximity to other organisms? . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Wow what great pics Pleecan! could you post a note with respect to the photographic details? Your macro/micro pics are really clear. I've been following in the photography forum and appreciate your 'candidness' I don't suppose starfish fry looked like starfish? Here is the camera configuration: Camera is 3 mega pixel Nikon Coolpix 995 3x zoom Direct coupled with a 3" custom made projection tube with RMS thread to accept std. microscope objectives I am using high end microscope objectives in this case 10X Apochromatic Objective , infinity corrected ( worth more that the camera ) Lighting is CFL spiral bulb at 6000K I put the scale there to show you that the objective lens is huge. I was wondering if indeed this is a baby starfish????? but at 1mm??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Cool. Thanks for the two conditions. So, not for argument, but just for clarification....do you have positive ID of that roundish item bottom-center-right being crinoid columnal, or is that conjecture based on formation and/or proximity to other organisms? The circular objects are common and I think they are crinoid stem crossections... this is Arkona Shale / rotted to clay identical to the fauna and flora of Michigan Basin.. Middle Devonian. ... this material is from the sediments that collected at the bottom of my ultrasonic cleaner unit... normally I would throw the stuff out but now saved and analysed for microfossils... lots of fun. Edited January 11, 2011 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Thanks Pleecan, good luck with the starfish It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 I found an identical star shaped object from the following website: http://www.eeob.iastate.edu/faculty/DrewesC/htdocs/fossil-buttons.htm left hand side.... described as a "crinoid fragment" yet ROM disagrees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiofossilhunter Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I would quess weird crinoid stem. Could it be a cast of the flower/star shaped hole inside the crinoid ring??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I found an identical star shaped object from the following website: http://www.eeob.iastate.edu/faculty/DrewesC/htdocs/fossil-buttons.htm left hand side.... described as a "crinoid fragment" yet ROM disagrees Well, actually....it's not an "identical" match (consider the texture and apparent pattern on the one in the new link). So, while I couldn't deny they're the same thing, they certainly look like they could be from totally different organisms. Whatever it is, it could be the same thing if the one in the OP is just much more weathered, but they're not even in the same size range.....this one is 1/10th of a mm, while I think the original one in this thread is 1 mm. Not that that would mean they can't be different sizes of the same thing.....there are indeed crinoid columnals of both sizes that are generally star shaped. This one just seems different.....I guess the translucence still throws me off. Are there any positively identified crinoid pieces/parts from this same formation, and if so, what are they replaced with? . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Well it still remains an interesting mystery fossil.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Russell Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Here's one that I found; however Silurian in age, that's quite similar as well. I still dont have a possitive ID on my fossil. Finding my way through life; one fossil at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) ^^^^^ another interesting specimen, Rob. Hmm, I don't know. With all three of these specimens so far, the only thing in common between them is the fact that they are all star shaped. Of course, any good 'fossil shape identifier' guide would suggest that, if it's a star shape (especially if it's got 5-sided radial symmetry), it's probably an echinoderm. This one actually has a shape that looks quite star-fish-like, but I have no idea what their 'young' are like, etc. To be clear, I'm still not saying that these things are for sure not crinoid pieces. I just don't think we can say for sure yet with the info available thus far. Edited January 15, 2011 by Mr. Edonihce . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Edonihce Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 here's another one which has actually been identified as a crinoid columnal... http://louisvillefossils.blogspot.com/2010/04/indiana-ordovician-crinoid-stems.html very similar shape to the original one in this thread, but very different material. . ____________________ scale in avatar is millimeters ____________________ Come visit Sandi, the 'Fossil Journey Cruiser' ____________________ WIPS (the Western Interior Paleontological Society - http://www.westernpaleo.org) ____________________ "Being genetically cursed with an almost inhuman sense of curiosity and wonder, I'm hard-wired to investigate even the most unlikely, uninteresting (to others anyway) and irrelevant details; often asking hypothetical questions from many angles in an attempt to understand something more thoroughly." -- Mr. Edonihce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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