DCW Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Guys, just found what looks to me like a Plesiosaur tooth: What do you think? It does have an edge, and I didn't think Plesiosaurs were supposed to have one. It looks to robust to be Enchodus, too narrow to be a mosasaur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 when i found my first i also hoped it was plesiosaur, but its xiphactinus! still very rare and really nice find! ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossiladdict Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Yep, looks x-fish to me as well. Fossils are simply one of the coolest things on earth--discovering them is just marvelous! Makes you all giddy inside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I agree with Xiphactinus. Pretty darned rare, especially in such nice condition. Nice job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 I'm curious about that flattened surface. Is that common on an x-fish tooth? Does it come from wear? If so, wear while still in use or after it's out? I have one from the quarry in Midlothian without that feature and it seems to taper a bit more quickly than DWC's tooth. Maybe it's from a different place on the jaw? Where's that X-man when we need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Here's mine for comparison. Of course there's always the chance mine was misidentified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCW Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 Thanks for the attribution, guys. Toothpuller was spot on! He recognized it about a second after I posted it in the chat room last night. (Simultaneously crushing my plesiosaur pipe dream) Well, reading up on Xiphactinus I fell a little better. Seems like a very cool find afterall. Until now, I was unaware of that specie's presence in NJ. It seems absent from the fossil ID sites. Bob, I think my tip chipped off long ago. I get the impression that this tooth spent very little time in the stream, given its shiny enamel. The back side of the tooth is pristine. It has various chips and scrapes, evidence of just how fragile this kind of tooth is. Thanks again for chiming in, everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Thanks for the attribution, guys. Toothpuller was spot on! He recognized it about a second after I posted it in the chat room last night. (Simultaneously crushing my plesiosaur pipe dream) Well, reading up on Xiphactinus I fell a little better. Seems like a very cool find afterall. Until now, I was unaware of that specie's presence in NJ. It seems absent from the fossil ID sites. Bob, I think my tip chipped off long ago. I get the impression that this tooth spent very little time in the stream, given its shiny enamel. The back side of the tooth is pristine. It has various chips and scrapes, evidence of just how fragile this kind of tooth is. Thanks again for chiming in, everybody. Yep, there's certainly more same than different about our teeth but it wasn't the tip but the one flat edge that seemed odd to my untrained eye. Maybe it's just a trick of the light. Just hoping one of the experts would explain, that's one of the great things about this site, I say something dumb and knowledgeable people get tricked into teaching me stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diplotomodon Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Yep, a Xiphactinus. Very rare to start with, let alone in such beautiful condition. Thanks for posting! Just out of curiosity, where did you find it? What a wonderful menagerie! Who would believe that such as register lay buried in the strata? To open the leaves, to unroll the papyrus, has been an intensely interesting though difficult work, having all the excitement and marvelous development of a romance. And yet the volume is only partly read. Many a new page I fancy will yet be opened. -- Edward Hitchcock, 1858 Formerly known on the forum as Crimsonraptor @Diplotomodon on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordpiney Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 here's my plesiosaur tooth i found last winter in the same area you found that in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCW Posted March 26, 2011 Author Share Posted March 26, 2011 Yes, the heavy striations had me thinking plesiosaur. But the cutting edge ruled that out. This tooth was found at Big Brook. In the same sieve as a 1 1/2 in goblin. Always intriguing to find new things. Keeps the hobby fresh! Piney, how big is that tooth anyway? And what are the telltale signs if a true plesiosaur tooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 To me it kind of says Enchodus with the triangular cross section, X-fish are a little more round in my experience. Here is a Plesiosaur tooth my wife found. You can see it has the same kind of markings as lordpiney's. For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 To me it kind of says Enchodus with the triangular cross section, X-fish are a little more round in my experience. Here is a Plesiosaur tooth my wife found. You can see it has the same kind of markings as lordpiney's. Schwimmer et al (1997) describe two Xiphactinus species in North America. X. audax (Leidy, 1870) has teeth with a round cross-section and round vertebrae, and is found in the Western Interior seaway, Texas, and East to Alabama. X. vetus (Leidy, 1856) has teeth that are more oval or angulate in cross section, with an anterior carina and sometimes with a posterior carina as well; the vertebrae tend to be more oval, shorter in dorsal-ventral height than in the diameter from side to side. X. vetus is found in Georgia, the Carolinas, New Jersey, etc, basically along the Atlantic seaboard. The tooth is consistent with Xiphactinus vetus (Leidy, 1856). Nice find! Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Ahoy Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 Yes, the heavy striations had me thinking plesiosaur. But the cutting edge ruled that out. This tooth was found at Big Brook. In the same sieve as a 1 1/2 in goblin. Always intriguing to find new things. Keeps the hobby fresh! Piney, how big is that tooth anyway? And what are the telltale signs if a true plesiosaur tooth? Completely round with no cutting edge is usually the giveaway, here. And elongated, which will separate it from croc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I was kind of thinking Enchodus also. It looks very much like a tooth that I found from the same spot that was identified as Enchodus. Here are some pictures of the one I found. What do you think? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 DCW I wonder if we could see a picture of the tooth looking down on it from the tip. Just Bob's Enchodus tooth has two sides with what Darwin Ahoy calls cutting edges and I'm not familiar with the term Don used to describe the X.vetus tooth (carina). From his description of X.audax that must be what I have since it's completely round, but your tooth looks like it has at least one surface that is flat. Am I seeing that wrong and is that a carina? I tried looking this term up with no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Bob, A carina is a cutting edge to a tooth. Cheers, Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'm in the enchodus camp. Xiphactinus teeth are more round, enchodus have the flattened features like this tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diplotomodon Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'm in the enchodus camp. Xiphactinus teeth are more round, enchodus have the flattened features like this tooth. Are you sure? Maybe I'm wrong but it looks a bit big to be Enchodus... What a wonderful menagerie! Who would believe that such as register lay buried in the strata? To open the leaves, to unroll the papyrus, has been an intensely interesting though difficult work, having all the excitement and marvelous development of a romance. And yet the volume is only partly read. Many a new page I fancy will yet be opened. -- Edward Hitchcock, 1858 Formerly known on the forum as Crimsonraptor @Diplotomodon on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think we do need a view that shows the cross-section. If it is a neat lens, I vote for Xiphactinus. If it is a lop-sided, bulging lens, I vote for Enchodus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) I'm in the enchodus camp. Xiphactinus teeth are more round, enchodus have the flattened features like this tooth. Did you read the paper I posted a link to? There are two species of Xiphactinus. Xiphactinus audax, which is the only species that occurs in your area, has teeth that are straight, round in cross-section, and lack carinae (cutting edges). Xiphactinus vetus has teeth that are curved, oval or slightly angular in cross-section, and with anterior and sometimes posterior carinae. X. vetus is an Atlantic coastal plain species, you would not have had occasion to encounter it in your area. Here is the figure with the teeth from the Schwimmer et al paper. Teeth A-E are X. audax, the rest are X. vetus. Note that the tooth shown in M-O is especially similar to DCW's specimen. Enchodus teeth never approach this size. Don Edited March 28, 2011 by FossilDAWG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphactinus Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Did you read the paper I posted a link to? There are two species of Xiphactinus. Xiphactinus audax, which is the only species that occurs in your area, has teeth that are straight, round in cross-section, and lack carinae (cutting edges). Xiphactinus vetus has teeth that are curved, oval or slightly angular in cross-section, and with anterior and sometimes posterior carinae. X. vetus is an Atlantic coastal plain species, you would not have had occasion to encounter it in your area. Here is the figure with the teeth from the Schwimmer et al paper. Teeth A-E are X. audax, the rest are X. vetus. Note that the tooth shown in M-O is especially similar to DCW's specimen. Enchodus teeth never approach this size. Don Yes, I saw your post. The difference I see are the fine ribs/lines on the tooth in question. I don't believe either Xiphactinus species have those lines. They are all very smooth. As far as size, Enchodus petrosus have very long fangs...up to 3". http://oceansofkansas.com/FossilFish/Enchodus/EPC-Enchodus2002-2b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yes, I saw your post. The difference I see are the fine ribs/lines on the tooth in question. I don't believe either Xiphactinus species have those lines. They are all very smooth. As far as size, Enchodus petrosus have very long fangs...up to 3". http://oceansofkansas.com/FossilFish/Enchodus/EPC-Enchodus2002-2b.jpg I see your point. I've seen 2" Enchodus teeth, but I didn't know they got to 3". For sure, I would not have wanted to take a swim with either one of those monster fish. Perhaps DCW could email Dr. Schwimmer [schwimmer_David (at) colstate.edu] for an opinion from a real authority (which I am not!). Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Ahoy Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Is there a difference in cross section between Xiphactinus and Enchodus? I have at least a few teeth that I have piled together that I can't decide between. Though none of mine have much in the way of appreciable striations like this tooth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) There is a difference. If it is a neat lens: Xiphactinus. If it is a lop-sided, bulging lens: Enchodus. I know this is a bit vague, so if I (or someone else) can post what I mean, it will be very clear. Is there a difference in cross section between Xiphactinus and Enchodus? I have at least a few teeth that I have piled together that I can't decide between. Though none of mine have much in the way of appreciable striations like this tooth... Edited March 28, 2011 by Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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