hitekmastr Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Very nice - definitely worthwhile bringing these out for discussion and identification - and nice to share - especially appreciated by those of us who are focusing on fossil ferns as we are, this Fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) This is different; anyone know what it is? I believe your "delicate frond " might be Aphlebia sp. These are some beautiful plants. Edited August 31, 2012 by Herb "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 I'm with Herb, these are all amazing, Missourian. I love the variety and contrasting colors of them. Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 Thanks everyone for the comments. After digging through the boxes, it turns out I don't have quite as many ferns that I thought I had. I did sell a few off at one point. I guess that means I'll have to go out and find some more.... Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 A few more miscellaneous pieces.... Tonganoxie.... Mariopteris?: Alethopteris?: Neuropteris: ?: Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted August 31, 2012 Author Share Posted August 31, 2012 And finally, some stratigraphic context of the fern sites: The chart represents about 1000 feet of strata. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNN Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 (edited) Nicely detailed plants.You should be able to identify the species for many of these. Based on my limited knowledge of Mazon Creek flora the genus for a few of the fossils you posted are: Winterset Limestone of Lees Summit, Missouri: 2nd & 3rd picture appear to be neuropteris. Tonganoxie Sandstone 3,4,6,7 all look like pecopteris. 5th looks like a member of the alethopteris group. Edited August 31, 2012 by BNN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNN Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) My comments above refer to the pictures on the first page of this topic. Edited September 2, 2012 by BNN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 Thanks BNN. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) What a fantastic assemblage of plant material! Another great thread....... Looks like you have some of the more common genera listed already but I'm not familiar with most of what you have, but if I run across any ID's/literature I'll let you know. Coud be there are others in the forum that have some of this material and ID's. Are there any universities nearby and/or museums with any Pennsylvanian age material that you might solicit help from? I'm wondering what state resources they might also have to take advantage of..a Division of mines in each state? I would think there'd be some pubs/docs out there somewhere as well...Again, if I run across something or find some more time...Not gonna be around much in the next months--holdiay season is our busiest and pre-planning for the season is already here! Thanks for sharing the beautiful variety!... Regards, Chris Edited September 2, 2012 by Plantguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Dactyll Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Missourian.... You have some absolutely stunning plant material there with excellent preservation....I like the delecate frond and the uncurling fern frond... If the 2nd 'fiddlehead' is a fiddlehead I have never seen a few on the same nodule.... Beautiful....I cant really pick a favoroute I would love to find them all..... thanks for sharing them with us.... Cheers Steve... And Welcome if your a New Member... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raistlin Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Missourian, I would love to get up your way some day. You have one awesome amazing collection going there. I am really left in awe at the beauty of your ferns. I have never seen stuff like this especially to that degree. How long has it taken to put together such a collection? Are they really easy to find or are you just really lucky and persistant? RobertSoutheast, MO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 4, 2012 Author Share Posted September 4, 2012 How long has it taken to put together such a collection? Are they really easy to find or are you just really lucky and persistant? I collected all the pieces back in the 1990s. I found the Bonner Sprinngs Shale site myself. All others were found by other collecters. At least one has been known for many decades. I'm not sure if any of the sites are still open. I guess it's time to look around some more.... The plants are usually abundant when found, but the deposits are very local in extent. I collected some myself. Others were acquired from fellow hunters. A couple more were bought from a local rock shop to fill in gaps in my collection. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raistlin Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 I think the only place around here to maybe find such things is near the Dino dig site. Of course this is private property to which is off limits. It seems to be the only place around that is not aquatic fossils, and it is a limited area. I am not even sure one would fine fern fossils there though it is just my best guess. RobertSoutheast, MO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 This is different; anyone know what it is? I think it is Aphlebia sp, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlehead Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Still more Knob Noster.... ?: ?: Neuropteris sp.: ?: Fiddle head: Fiddleheads?: The fossils shown in post #12 are from the top down; 1. Lobatopteris lamuriana; 2. Eusphenopteris trifoliolta; 3. is either Neuropteris vermicularis or flexuosa since the terminal pinnule is missing it is impossible to tell. The Neuropteris in post 2 is the former; 4. appears to be Mariopteris speciosa; 5. is a fiddlehead also known as a Spiropteris; 6. Kankakeea grundyi the vegetative reproductive structure of Lobatopterids and up till this time only known from Mazon Creek area, very cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 The fossils shown in post #12 are from the top down; 1. Lobatopteris lamuriana; 2. Eusphenopteris trifoliolta; 3. is either Neuropteris vermicularis or flexuosa since the terminal pinnule is missing it is impossible to tell. The Neuropteris in post 2 is the former; 4. appears to be Mariopteris speciosa; 5. is a fiddlehead also known as a Spiropteris; 6. Kankakeea grundyi the vegetative reproductive structure of Lobatopterids and up till this time only known from Mazon Creek area, very cool! Thank you. I haven't heard of many of those types. What would be a good source for reference? Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlehead Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Knob Noster material is contemporaneous to Mazon Creek. The Croweburg Formation's coal and overlying shale member in Missouri is thought to be the same unit as Colechester 2 coal and Francis Creek Shale in northern Illinois. Anything found in one is likely to be seen in the other. Interestingly they both exhibit the yet explained phenomenon of gigantism in the flora. That said, any reference dealing with the Mazon Creek or Radstockian flora in England or the upper beds of the Sydney coalfield in Nova Scotia will contain many of the same elements like those you are finding. At this time The Mazon Creek Fossil Flora, Wittry (me) is a good start. But it needs some updating and lacks many of the rarer fossils like some of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgrilusHunter Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Knob Noster material is contemporaneous to Mazon Creek. The Croweburg Formation's coal and overlying shale member in Missouri is thought to be the same unit as Colechester 2 coal and Francis Creek Shale in northern Illinois. Anything found in one is likely to be seen in the other. Interestingly they both exhibit the yet explained phenomenon of gigantism in the flora. That said, any reference dealing with the Mazon Creek or Radstockian flora in England or the upper beds of the Sydney coalfield in Nova Scotia will contain many of the same elements like those you are finding. At this time The Mazon Creek Fossil Flora, Wittry (me) is a good start. But it needs some updating and lacks many of the rarer fossils like some of yours. Hi Jack, Welcome to the forum! I just wanted to say that I love your book! Forum member RCFossils (you'll know him as Rob C.) let me borrow his copy to identify much of the plant material I'm collecting from Indiana strip mines; it has been invaluable. I've already purchased a copy for myself and another for our department library as well. "They ... savoured the strange warm glow of being much more ignorant than ordinary people, who were only ignorant of ordinary things." -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Knob Noster material is contemporaneous to Mazon Creek. The Croweburg Formation's coal and overlying shale member in Missouri is thought to be the same unit as Colechester 2 coal and Francis Creek Shale in northern Illinois. Anything found in one is likely to be seen in the other. Interestingly they both exhibit the yet explained phenomenon of gigantism in the flora. That said, any reference dealing with the Mazon Creek or Radstockian flora in England or the upper beds of the Sydney coalfield in Nova Scotia will contain many of the same elements like those you are finding. At this time The Mazon Creek Fossil Flora, Wittry (me) is a good start. But it needs some updating and lacks many of the rarer fossils like some of yours. Thanks. Has the Knob Noster deposit definitely been identified as Croweburg? I saw the site in person several years ago, but the only stratigraphic context I could discern was the lower Marmaton Group beds that cap a couple nearby hills. I haven't heard of any field work done on the site. And welcome to the forum. Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Winterset Limestone Kansas City metro For the life of me, I cannot remember where I collected these years ago. I didn't even remember having them in my collection until I stumbled upon them the other day. Some fern fronds: Edited September 17, 2012 by Missourian Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) Many scattered pinnules: The pointy-leaf variety of Neuropteris: Cordaites leaves are present too: More fragments: These plants came from the same horizon as the tan-colored Winterset specimens above, though these beds of limestone are harder and contain some chert. The plant types are basically the same, but these tend to be more fragmented. The ferns tend to occur locally. Cordaites leaves, on the other hand, are widespread over the entire metro area. Edited September 17, 2012 by Missourian Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlehead Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The geology of Johnson and Henry Co., Mo. is complicated. What has been agreed upon is the Croweburg Formation's coal and overlying shale member being what is in the Knob Noster area. But I am not aware of any local names ever being given to those units. From the falcate and overlying pinnules covering the top of the rachis, plus the elongated terminal pinnule a good start would be to check out references on Neuropteris tenuifolia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missourian Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) The geology of Johnson and Henry Co., Mo. is complicated. What has been agreed upon is the Croweburg Formation's coal and overlying shale member being what is in the Knob Noster area. But I am not aware of any local names ever being given to those units. The Croweburg Coal is at the top of the Croweburg Formation. The overlying shale is part of the Verdigris Fm. If the nodules are contained within the Croweburg Fm., then they would overlie the Fleming Coal. Yeah, that sounds more like a riddle than a stratigraphic description.... For me, the difficulty with these beds is their obscurity. They consist of a dozen or more formations that repeat in cycles of sand, clay and coal. It becomes difficult to tell one from the other without any obvious stratigraphic markers. The rocks are all 'soft', so there aren't any topographic expressions of the beds. And on top of it all, exposures are very scarce, as there have been no new roads or active coal mines for decades (that I'm aware of). I would love to hunt some of these strata, but I haven't yet figured out how to approach them. (Edit: when I say I "haven't yet figured out how to approach them", I mean I haven't figured out how to tell which potential deposits would be worth checking before making the 100-mile trip to the area.) Edited September 17, 2012 by Missourian Context is critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Fossil Plants of Alabama, Illinois are online free at their respective Geological Survey sites. The site WVFossils has great info and www.fossieleplanten.nl. Just search Pennsylvanian fossil plants and stand back. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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