Fossil Hunters Run Amok And The B.c. Government Sits Idle

[Guest Nicholas]

I smell more regulations on collecting in Canada...

Find the article HERE!

[Guest solius symbiosus]

I should preface this by saying that I have never sold a fossil, but I have given, and traded, a few.

I have long held a disdain for commercial fossil dealers. Though, if it is on your property, I feel you have the right to dispose of your mineral rights as you deem right for you.

[Guest Nicholas]

Canada has this odd issue with fossils leaving the country, I report mine the proper authority. It keeps relations smooth, they will give me a break and let me keep them, if I give them a break and tell them my site and what I found so they can document it. They WANT to know if you are moving them or sending them to another country, at least that was what I was told by the authority on the subject matter. They don't want important finds or possible important finds to be lost to another country.

[Guest solius symbiosus]

^^And, the logic is valid. When Jefferson was president, he loaned a considerable number of pieces that were found at Big Bone Lick in N. Ky to the Czar. To this day, they are housed in the museum in St. Petersburg... after numerous attempts to reclaim them.

[Auspex]

When commercial collectors achieve the scale of a natural resource extraction industry, the greed alarm is going to go off. Limit them to the tools they can carry in and the spoils they can carry out.

[tracer]

A Modest Proposal

Didn't Jefferson struggle with debt and die owing big money? Not sure he was the greatest at cutting deals.

At the risk of being controversial (as always), here's how I feel about fossil pillage. Fossil dealers rob fossil enthusiasts of the chance of finding exciting treasures with memories attached to the experience. Fossil dealers also, however, provide fossil treasures to those who cannot go find them. To some extent, those who commercially hunt fossils preserve what would otherwise be destroyed, when they find fossils that others wouldn't find in time to save. On the other hand, if dealers would go get real jobs, they wouldn't risk being ethically compromised by taking things from others' land and "fixing" them to sell for the highest price possible.

Now, about those scientists. Scientists seem to believe that what they want to do is more important that what others want to do - that science comes first. My response to that is "why"? They want everything off limits for others so that they, if they EVER get around to it, can have free rein to gather information and derive personal status and acclaim from their work. I have been around scientists and academics. They are not all full of lofty idealism and a desire to serve humankind. They seem more frequently motivated by ego than by money, but still. Their work is not normally readily accessible to others who are not scientists. You can perhaps go to their universities and search their libraries, or you can BUY their articles from their scientific publications, but most of the time, you're not going to have it easy trying to learn from what they learned, and that assumes you can understand what they write, in that they prefer using terminology that precludes understanding by lay persons. The advancement of science from studying fossils - how does that ultimately result in actual derived benefit to humankind? Oh, of course I find it all fascinating, and maybe somehow the development of military robotic exoskeletons for soldiers has been assisted by studying how extinct species walked, but in general, not all sciences seem to be created equally when it comes to discoveries or innovations which end up being of benefit to all. I'd tend to go with aerospace and marine sciences to get the most bang for my tax dollar.

Should you donate your fossil finds to a university, they will likely end up hidden away somewhere and forgotten. Should you donate them to a museum, they MIGHT be on display for a while, but will probably at some point be sold so that they museum can get money for whatever it does with money. But then again, more people might see them and they might be better protected from the elements than if they're in a shoebox under your bed.

But ultimately, does it matter? Humankind is not likely to survive long enough in geological terms to really matter, and when the earth eventually is pulled into the sun, all evidence of anything on the planet will be dealt with summarily. For this reason, I believe the best two fossils of each kind, male and female, should be confiscated from whoever has them and aggregated and shot into space in the direction of whichever part of the universe is deemed most likely to have sentience, if not a clue.

Um, which is worse -heavy doses of satire or incessant puns? Just curious.

[Auspex]

Well reasoned, Tracer.

(Was "Northern Exposure" your favorite TV show, and Marilyn your favorite character?)

[Guest bmorefossil]

dang there has to be something you can do, just tell them to look down at them Americans. Say look at what they are doing!

[Guest Nicholas]

Now, about those scientists. Scientists seem to believe that what they want to do is more important that what others want to do - that science comes first. My response to that is "why"? They want everything off limits for others so that they, if they EVER get around to it, can have free rein to gather information and derive personal status and acclaim from their work. I have been around scientists and academics. They are not all full of lofty idealism and a desire to serve humankind. They seem more frequently motivated by ego than by money, but still. Their work is not normally readily accessible to others who are not scientists. You can perhaps go to their universities and search their libraries, or you can BUY their articles from their scientific publications, but most of the time, you're not going to have it easy trying to learn from what they learned, and that assumes you can understand what they write, in that they prefer using terminology that precludes understanding by lay persons. The advancement of science from studying fossils - how does that ultimately result in actual derived benefit to humankind? Oh, of course I find it all fascinating, and maybe somehow the development of military robotic exoskeletons for soldiers has been assisted by studying how extinct species walked, but in general, not all sciences seem to be created equally when it comes to discoveries or innovations which end up being of benefit to all. I'd tend to go with aerospace and marine sciences to get the most bang for my tax dollar.

This is precisely how fossils have been accumulated in the past here on my province, not long ago nearly all fossils were off limits to personal collectors. It was a duty to the province to report all finds as it was to "further science". To me reading past records, and the like it all seemed like a scientific popularity contest. Nova Scotia, and people who lived here have a track record for scientific innovation... The telephone was developed here, hydrofoil, I believe even the washing machine had some development here... In any case Nova Scotia loves to stroke its ego, and when resident scientists discovered important fossils in one locality, suddenly everything was to be grabbed up and categorized in the name of science. Scientists placed restrictive collection zones all over the province, and over collected every site even if they had an abundance of a particular fossil. Where are these fossils now? Held in drawers and in warehouses collecting dust, most will never be displayed. A sad reality. It is because of these strict scientific laws that collectors did not share with the scientific community, and only now have the authorities realized that if they keep being so strict taking every fossil(even insignificant ones) that they may lose something important to a closet collector.

[tracer]

On a side note, it is totally annoying to me when I re-read my posts to see how far out in left field I was when I wrote them, and find typos or grammar glitches that slid past my stream-of-consciousness style.

Probably an ego thing. I try to rid myself of the little head games that involve my ego. You know, like when you're standing around in a group and somebody tells a "war story" and you suddenly find yourself trying to tell a better one, and then ask yourself why you're doing that...

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

I have strong feelings about this issue. If the dealers have the license and are not breaking the law, then they are doing absolutely nothing wrong. They might not be doing it the way you or I would like, but they are doing nothing wrong. Why say that fossil dealers should be held in "disdain"? Then as someone else pointed out, so should the scientists and museums. They all PROFIT from the collecting of fossils. It is all about the money. Too many fossils to count are locked up in museums and university collections where no one can appreciate them. And remember I work at a university. I read that one university/museum had something like 10,000 Oreondont skulls. Why? And why then are Oreondonts still illegal to collect on public lands?

Now for this particular story, I too find it a shame that so many fossils are being destroyed just for the collecting of the commercially more valuable ones. I would love to be able to collect those insects and plants for my own collection. However, they were not braking the law or codes set in place at the time. Canada has horrible amateur fossil collecting laws and I dare say that there are collectors on this forum who break them. England has great laws (even though I think they are changing to be more restrictive).

What needs to be done is that when a valuable site has been discovered, the scientists get first crack at it (because of course they will only take what they need for study), and then it is opened for amateur/professional collectors (depending on who owns the property, private or public). The property owner has the right to make a profit too (see the T-rex Sue case). The scientists then should return once a year to see if there is anything else they can use from the site. When the Frankstown site was discovered in Mississippi, the scientists and the amateur got along side by side and all benefitted. Of course that was a emergency dig of two years, since the site was to be paved over for a highway.

I buy fossils. I collect fossils. If I want a trilobite from Russia, what am I to do: 1. Buy plane tickets, get motel rooms, pay someone to show me where to go dig for them, meals.... $$$$$ or 2. Look up a dealer on the net or visit them when they come into town for the annual Gem & Mineral show and buy one $? And don't forget, how many gem and mineral clubs around the nation make a profit from hosting shows? I guess all those people should also be held in disdain??

[Archimedes]

Could not have said it better tracer,

In the last 20 years I have seen many whole, scientifically valuable collections, thrown out the door and/or sold to the highest bidder by universities and museums because of, I guess money, and very little work was ever done on these scientifically valuable collections too. Many fine specimens were carried away by the students for their own collections. So why do these professional have to cry wolf??? They are not taking care of what they have.

Paleontologists are not being replaced as one retires either, so who is going to work on these scientifically valuable collections??

Armatures and fossil collectors have always been the backbone of Paleontology.

[Roz]

I don't personally care if anyone sells fossils or is even a commercial dealer, for

the reasons mentioned on here earlier. If they dig on the land that have have permission

or mineral rights, then can can do what they want. Might not be what I would do, but not my call.

What I will never get in any country is no hunting on some public lands. I can see no digging rule but hunting

I just don't get. That land belongs to all. Lots of discoveries are made by amateurs, if a new species, I think most would donate or at least lend. I wouldn't like being forced though. Fossil hunting shouldn't require so much government intervention. IMHO

[Guest solius symbiosus]

Why say that fossil dealers should be held in "disdain"?

It is just my personal opinion. A lot of them are in for the money; anything else is secondary.

Then as someone else pointed out, so should the scientists and museums. They all PROFIT from the collecting of fossils. It is all about the money. Too many fossils to count are locked up in museums and university collections where no one can appreciate them. And remember I work at a university. I read that one university/museum had something like 10,000 Oreondont skulls. Why? And why then are Oreondonts still illegal to collect on public lands?

I couldn't disagree more. Virtually everything that we know about fossils, came from academics. The vast majority of what is published, is from this same group. I've known several, and none of them were in it for the money. In fact, they all did for the love of knowledge; it certainly wasn't for the money. Considering that a student graduating with a BS in Geology will make more money in an entry level job in the energy sector than a college professor is a testament to the motives of those in the "Ivory Towers".

To answer your other question, public lands are just that... public. They belong to all the people. Using your logic, companies could come in and mine, or strip timber, from those lands if it was who ever finds, or has the capital, to remove whatever they wanted.

Many of the latest insights in the field, have come from research on specimens that have laid in trays, in basements, for years. Just because most people don't see them, doesn't mean they are forgotten.

I buy fossils. I collect fossils. If I want a trilobite from Russia, what am I to do: 1. Buy plane tickets, get motel rooms, pay someone to show me where to go dig for them, meals.... $$$$$ or 2. Look up a dealer on the net or visit them when they come into town for the annual Gem & Mineral show and buy one $?

I wouldn't know how to answer that. If someone is collecting on private property, all is fair.

And don't forget, how many gem and mineral clubs around the nation make a profit from hosting shows? I guess all those people should also be held in disdain??

That is kind of apples and oranges, but no. Their first priority is for the hobby that they love, not financial.

[TheFossilHunter]

I am fine with dealers selling fossils, but I feel like, for certain important sites, there should be some regulations as to what and when they can collect off of public land...probably scientists should be able to research the site first, then let the dealers come in...there should also be some dialogue between them...some regulations as to what finds need to be reported. If its a private land, then they should probably have the right to do whatever they want with owners permission.

[PaleoRon]

I have found in the past that much of the talk about how fossils should only be in the realm of professional paleontologists is about greed and ego. Some, perhaps many, but not all paleontologists hate seeing a non-professional make an important find. The guys that I deal with are not like that, which is why I deal with them and not others. The great majority of important specimens that I have collected have ended up in museums. It shouldn't matter who finds the specimen as long as it has all of it's pertinent information. I believe that scientifically important specimens need to be documented and studied and with our current level of technology, with the proper tests and scanning, the original specimen doesn't need to be present physically for further study if the owner doesn't want to part with it. These important fossils are less than one percent of all fossils currently being found. Common fossils have no scientific value except perhaps as index fossils to date a particular rock strata. There is no reason for restrictions on collecting and ownership. I keep waiting for some fruitcake to ban the collecting of fossils by all except professional paleontologists. If that happens it would technically be illegal to mine coal, limestone, diatomaceous earth, and sand in some areas.

I find it interesting that the people digging the fish have a permit. I have not collected in Canada but I have heard it is difficult to get a permit to commercially remove fossils. Obviously these guys went through the process. Can this be a case of one or a few people that can't stand the thought of someone else digging "their" fossils? Did they try to get into the quarry to collect and were run off by the permit holders? It seems there is more to the story than is being told.

[Auspex]

...It seems there is more to the story than is being told.

There's the nut. Still, when controversy takes on a life of its own and obscures the root cause, the outcome can be what nobody wants.

[Guest N.AL.hunter]

"I couldn't disagree more. Virtually everything that we know about fossils, came from academics. The vast majority of what is published, is from this same group. I've known several, and none of them were in it for the money. In fact, they all did for the love of knowledge; it certainly wasn't for the money. Considering that a student graduating with a BS in Geology will make more money in an entry level job in the energy sector than a college professor is a testament to the motives of those in the "Ivory Towers"."

You are correct in that the literature come mostly from academic studies, but I capitalized the word PROFIT in my original post to emphasize that it has different meanings. The Paleontologists publish to keep their jobs, the old "publish or parish" rule. Therefore, they do profit from the collecting of fossils. Also, I have seen how several professionals treat fossils. If what they find is not what they are studying, they don't care (usually). Many do not 'love' or collect fossils the way that I do. They treat them only as a means to and end. The 'end' being their production of a publishable paper. And museums often sell specimens that they no longer 'need' for their collection. If it isn't about money, why not give them away? Also, while much of the literature comes from the academic sector, many of the finds come from the amateur sector that is used in the study for the literature.

"To answer your other question, public lands are just that... public. They belong to all the people. Using your logic, companies could come in and mine, or strip timber, from those lands if it was who ever finds, or has the capital, to remove whatever they wanted."

Hate to inform you, but companies already come in and mine, strip timber from public lands (BLM land and National forests). They are under regulations and laws (some of which might be too generous to them, but that is another story). My point in the first posting is that there is no real reason to restrict many (or any?) of the species from amateur collectors. If the amateur collector wasn't afraid of being fined/put in jail or having their find taken away, they could openly make new discoveries and be willing to share their finds with the professionals. Logic would dictate that the professional paleontologist does not need to actually own any fossil. They just need access to it for study. But the trouble is they want to be the only ones to own them and restrict the amateur from owning them. Why? If the whole fossil collecting community were like an open source software, things would be much better. Share the knowledge, but don't restrict it.

"Many of the latest insights in the field, have come from research on specimens that have laid in trays, in basements, for years. Just because most people don't see them, doesn't mean they are forgotten."

This is completely true. Just ask yourself this though, how much faster would the process be if the amateur wasn't so afraid of losing their finds? The spread of knowledge would increase and all would benefit. Is it really OK for a specimen to lay in a crate for over 100 years waiting for someone to "re-discover" it? Think of the poor original collector. Most likely dead and never receiving the acknowledgment he/she deserved.

I only argue points when someone makes one that is one sided (like the guy from a long time ago posting his theories on the extinction of the mega-fauna). I would hope that all members on this forum would agree that there are needs for both commercial dealers (some collectors cannot physically collect fossils themselves and must depend on the dealer or on fossils being given to them) and professional paleontologists. Which also brings up an interesting point, at which point does someone become a commercial dealer? I have sold fossils. Does that make me a commercial dealer? Should the simple act of selling a fossil bring "disdain" upon the amateur collector? If yes, then I am afraid there are many of us on this forum who are being held in disdain. How about if the fossil was sold to a museum, would that be OK since then a "professional" now has it in their possession?

[bone digger]

I was at Mcabee's 4-5 years ago. There is a commercial fossil operation there where you can pay to go dig for fossils and it's a very fun place to spend the day at. Most of the fossils you find are very common and of no scientific value. If you do happen to find something rare, you have to give it to the quarry owners. I know for a fact that the quarry has donated, to the museum, most or all of the rare finds. If it wasn't for the quarry, they never would have been found in the first place. When I was there there was another site near Mcabee's that was mining zeolite to use in CAT LITTER!!!!! This site was very rich in some of the best preserved fossil fish, all getting ground up for cats to sh** on. Also while I was there, at the kitty site, a friend found THE first, almost complete large fish ever found in the area, which she donated to the museum! Why is this all about the Mcabees pay dig site? They can't dig out fossils and sell them but the guy next door can grind them up? I don't know if that site is still active or not but if it is where is the mention of it? If it wasn't for some of the commercial dealers with there quarry's and us amature collectors, these scientists wouldn't have half of the fossils they have today. Look at the Green River formation and the fish quarry's, would most of the rare specimens be known to the "scientists" if not for the commercial dealers? There are lots of sites and examples like this from around the world, do you think "scientists" have the numbers, time, money, or motivation to excavate and find this stuff? IMO Scientists are just a bunch of greedy buggers that don't want anyone else to own fossils, they just want to shut sites down so only they can collect there. Most of them think fossils are best left to rot on the ground then be collected and enjoyed by an amature who doesn't know what he's doing! I guess if they get there way, we can cross that site off the list of "great places to go spend a day fossil hunting" and add it to the "your not worthy, where's your PHD" list!

[tracer]

You know, it just struck me that it would be a really great idea to market cat litter bags with a surprise fossil in each bag! Kind of like cracker jacks. That'd be a great idea, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Well, how about just in Arizona? Sometimes you people just don't have a sense of Yuma. Must be a bunch of danged dealers.

Look, I'm KIDDING! Sheesh. I think as long as you use really, really old pricetags, it's OK. And no blue light specials on anything from the Paleozoic...

[Auspex]

You know, it just struck me that it would be a really great idea to market cat litter bags with a surprise fossil in each bag!...

I've dug Cival War latrines for relics, but draw the line at litter boxes!

[tracer]

Why do people always draw THE line? Why isn't it A line, since there are apparently a bunch of them, drawn all sorts of places. They can't all be THE line. Criminy.

P.S. - It's Literal Tuesday

[Auspex]

P.S. - It's Literal Tuesday

It's also the full moon (which might explain a lot). Go outside and take a look; it's so bright here that it's hard to look at! Breathe some good Texas air while you're at it...

[Guest solius symbiosus]

To clarify a few things:

Hate to inform you, but companies already come in and mine, strip timber from public lands (BLM land and National forests). They are under regulations and laws (some of which might be too generous to them, but that is another story). My point in the first posting is that there is no real reason to restrict many (or any?) of the species from amateur collectors. If the amateur collector wasn't afraid of being fined/put in jail or having their find taken away, they could openly make new discoveries and be willing to share their finds with the professionals. Logic would dictate that the professional paleontologist does not need to actually own any fossil. They just need access to it for study. But the trouble is they want to be the only ones to own them and restrict the amateur from owning them. Why? If the whole fossil collecting community were like an open source software, things would be much better. Share the knowledge, but don't restrict it.

When minerals, or timber, is taken from public lands, a fee is payed that goes into the Treasury; which benefits us all.

Paleontologist don't own the fossils that they work on. They are owned by the supporting institution.

Too, unless very detailed notes on the stratigraphy, and lithology of the outcrop are taken, the fossil has lost most of it's scientific value. Most of the research these days, at least with inverts, is detailing the paleoecology of the environment.

[bone digger]

sorry for the rant, It just seems whenever there is a good fossil area it's made into a park or restricted area of some kind. Reminds me of the song "sign, ,sign, everywhere a sign" I wish Paleontologists and amatures could work with each other more. It would be nice if you could collect in a restricted area, show them what you found and if they want any of it for study, they can have it. If it's of no value to them, why not let someone enjoy it. Our laws around fossil hunting are destroying more fossils then they are saving. It would be a shame to see a site like McAbee's have there permit yanked and shut down for public collecting.