Ronbo Posted November 16, 2008 Author Share Posted November 16, 2008 I have another question for you guys. Some of the whale verts have a green algae coating on them and saying that what would be an ideal solvent to soak them in before using Butvar? Alcohol is water based yes so it is not an option now Acetone is not a water based solvent so maybe I could soak them in Acetone and if so for how long? But would the Acetone take care of the algae is my question them the time limit. Hey La dont know if this will help but I have a suggestion or two on the algae,if it was salt water algae maybe soaking it in fresh water will kill it and aid in the removal,not sure but a thought, Here is a clay pot I found buried about half way in the sand,you can see the part that was in the water had a very severe case of algae growing on it, I just let it dry completely and the algae came off in sheets, This may work in your case too,Not sure... and here it is after about 4 days of drying and a good peeling I have two of these that had the same growth on them and both worked well just letting it dry for several days... I know its not a fossil but algae has I think a very fragile root type system and doesnt go into the piece like a tap root, when it dies the stuff came right off..Others may have better ideas but this one worked for me... Ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted November 16, 2008 Author Share Posted November 16, 2008 The lip of the pot was buried in the sand and the rest was in the water, I found it upside down...I would like to get them little white looking specks off but dont want to push my luck and damage the pot,it made it around 2000 years and I sure hate to bust it up by striving for perfection in this piece, I had heard of putting it in muryatic acid but Im skeered to attempt that.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 The lip of the pot was buried in the sand and the rest was in the water, I found it upside down...I would like to get them little white looking specks off but dont want to push my luck and damage the pot,it made it around 2000 years and I sure hate to bust it up by striving for perfection in this piece, I had heard of putting it in muryatic acid but Im skeered to attempt that.. It is a fantastic find! Don't mess with it; there are enough pottery shards in the world already... 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted November 16, 2008 Author Share Posted November 16, 2008 No doubt on the shards Aus, I have literally buckets and buckets and boxes and tubs of shards, the other pot I have isnt in as good a shape about 1/3 of the lips is broken off of it but its the second most complete pot I have,When the weather warms Im going back and see about finding the rest of the set, I know there are more of them there,but its in a lake and gets silted up really bad if ya aint super careful,then ya cant see anything. and the vis is less than 2 foot most of the time without stirring the bottom.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Is that some kind of cooking pot do you think? Amazing to have found it intact like that! Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted November 16, 2008 Author Share Posted November 16, 2008 Not sure Roz, the discoloration in the thing is from where it was buried that deep in the sand I think, so its kinda hard to know if it was heated or if that was just the difference in the way it was exposed to the elements, One thing that gets me still is most everything pottery wise has a rounded bottom,abd some of the bottoms I have are pointed very sharply,either they had a rope harness type of thing on them or they dug alot of holes to set these in..Just speculating on that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 rounded bottoms are a good thing. you just gotta "lean wit it, rock wit it..." so what's the ultimate game plan for buckets and boxes and tubs of shards? i just thought of something. can you imagine how frustrating it would have been to have chased down and killed something, butchered it, limped back home, throw it in the stew pot, and when it was almost ready, and you had guests coming over to your cave for dinner, your best freakin' pot explodes and dumps your dinner in the fire? criminy - no wonder people used to bash each other in the head so much... thank goodness i was born in the nowocene... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 ...can you imagine how frustrating it would have been to have chased down and killed something, butchered it, limped back home, throw it in the stew pot, and when it was almost ready, and you had guests coming over to your cave for dinner, your best freakin' pot explodes and dumps your dinner in the fire?... That's how Bar-B-Q was invented. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Not sure Roz, the discoloration in the thing is from where it was buried that deep in the sand I think, so its kinda hard to know if it was heated or if that was just the difference in the way it was exposed to the elements, One thing that gets me still is most everything pottery wise has a rounded bottom,abd some of the bottoms I have are pointed very sharply,either they had a rope harness type of thing on them or they dug alot of holes to set these in..Just speculating on that.. My understanding is that these pots were NOT put into a fire for cooking because they would not survive the temperature differentials involved. Instead, "cooking stones" were heated in a fire, then dropped into the pot to cook the stew or whathaveyou. I have had cooking stones from Florida that are fired clay, fist size, like a kaizer roll. I have another from South Carolina that's more elaborate: The perforations and punctations provided a large surface area for the transfer of heat from the low-fire clay to the contents of the pot. 2 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 ok, artistic license aside, we can't be unrealistic in our storytelling - so our imaginary selves accidently dropped a cooking stone on our favoritest pot and smashed the sherds out of it, but in the process were rewarded by creating the oldest saying known to man, "dropped like a hot rock"... now i find myself wondering how the cooking stones were heated without getting them all covered in charcoal and snarge, which would detract from the ambiance of the moment if embued into the stew essence. did i use the word "embued" right? why is english so hard? i like trying to use strange words (he said to the crowd as if it hadn't been totally obvious to everyone since the history of him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 ...i find myself wondering how the cooking stones were heated without getting them all covered in charcoal and snarge, which would detract from the ambiance of the moment if embued into the stew essence... It's not like dropping dirty rocks into stew; the rocks were used to heat water so one could boil stuff in it. The stuff was then fished out and eaten (with very little ash adhering). During my childhood "Indians-are-cool/Eric Sloan" period, I boiled Jerusalem Artichokes in a bark vessel (worked up an appetite with that one; bark vessels that actually hold water are hard to make, and waterlogged stream cobbles have a tendency to explode when heated). Microwave ovens are convenient, but if the grid ever goes down, I'll know how to cause rocks to explode. 2 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 ok, soooo, yes, you made me research "jerusalem artichokes". and i checked a second source to see if John Goodyer's description of the results of eating them was accurate. but it would seem to me that your misspent youth's exploits would best be remarked upon using a timeless expression that i just made up - "I can believe you did it, but I can't believe you admit it." 'scuze me - i've got to go not boil some flatulence tubers in a bark leaky pot now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Hey La dont know if this will help but I have a suggestion or two on the algae,if it was salt water algae maybe soaking it in fresh water will kill it and aid in the removal,not sure but a thought, Here is a clay pot I found buried about half way in the sand,you can see the part that was in the water had a very severe case of algae growing on it, I just let it dry completely and the algae came off in sheets, This may work in your case too,Not sure... and here it is after about 4 days of drying and a good peeling I have two of these that had the same growth on them and both worked well just letting it dry for several days... I know its not a fossil but algae has I think a very fragile root type system and doesnt go into the piece like a tap root, when it dies the stuff came right off..Others may have better ideas but this one worked for me... Ron Ron if you like I can give you information about the pottery you found? If you e mail me on my personal e mail I can give you a bit of history on it with a few questions. My degree is in Archeology and though my studies were in pre history Native Americans I do know the Woodland Period as well. It would be a pleasure to do the research and put together information you can keep with the artifact. 1 The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted November 17, 2008 Author Share Posted November 17, 2008 Ron if you like I can give you information about the pottery you found? If you e mail me on my personal e mail I can give you a bit of history on it with a few questions. My degree is in Archeology and though my studies were in pre history Native Americans I do know the Woodland Period as well. It would be a pleasure to do the research and put together information you can keep with the artifact. Cool Linda I have thought about donating it to the museum of Charleston, on loan ofcourse lol, I sure hate for it to get busted up, the only preserving I have done on it is the cleaning you see in the pictures..I can show you exactly where it was found and I sent you a pm about what else I found there... Do you dive? Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screweduptexan Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Jeruselem Artichokes are really good. Except we always sliced and fried them. And I dont remember ever getting gas from them. As for the going off the grid comment...what about a solar oven? Course you could only use it on sunny days and it would take you a few hours to actually cook anything. Just throw'n out ideas. I can't come up with anything clever enough for my signature...yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 thank goodness i was born in the nowocene... that's a good one!..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawooten Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Cool Linda I have thought about donating it to the museum of Charleston, on loan ofcourse lol, I sure hate for it to get busted up, the only preserving I have done on it is the cleaning you see in the pictures..I can show you exactly where it was found and I sent you a pm about what else I found there... Do you dive? Ron Yes I dive and have gear also The best days are spent collecting fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronbo Posted November 18, 2008 Author Share Posted November 18, 2008 Then I know some unexplored spots, I have surface hunted these places and found some nice things,they are islands in a like about an hour from here, and they have some deep drop offs,been planning on diving them but need a buddy,I know the vis will be pretty much like the Cooper or maybe worse,but I have a feeling they will produce some killer artifacts,and a big plus is no gators have been seen there yet...I`ll get ya some more info in a pm when I get home tonite.. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 back on the preserving fossils bit - has anyone but me ever used microcrystalline wax, such as renaissance wax, for anything? i know that museum curators use it for various things, and woodworkers use it. just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 (From another thread) Here's my take on varnish and shellac: From the FLMNH website: "Consolidants, or hardeners as they are more commonly called, are often the collector's first line of defense against deterioration of specimens in their collection, especially those specimens comprised of poorly mineralized bone so often found in the Pleistocene river deposits or coastal marls of Florida and the rest of the Southeast. By definition, a consolidant is a resin which has been dissolved in a solvent. Common solvents are water, acetone, alcohol, and toluene. Consolidants are generally available in two forms: 1) pure resins, and 2) emulsions. Pure resins consolidants are resins which have been dissolved in a solvent, such as Butvar (polyvinyl butyral) granules dissolved in acetone. Consolidants dissolved in acetone should only be used on dry specimens, since even a small amount of moisture in the specimen can react adversely with the consolidant destroying its desired properties. Museums in the U.S. and Europe stick with a few tried and true consolidants which are known to have a low tendency for crosslinking and which do not lose their consolidant properties over time. Chief among these are polyvinyl butyral (Butvar), a thermoplastic resin, and Acryloid B-72, an acrylic resin. PVA (polyvinyl acetate), used as a pure resin is still available, but most users have switched to Acryloid B-72, which is harder, more durable, and exhibits less flexibility. Pure resins are mixed with their solvents to form a very thin, watery solution which is then applied to the specimen (or the specimen is immersed in the solution). Thin and watery should be stressed. The idea is to get the resin where it's needed, and in order to penetrate the specimen's surface and carry resin down into the interior of the fossil bone, the consolidant must be thin or else it will be deposited on the surface of the bone only, like shellac or varnish used in the past. Those treatments may have protected the surface, but did little to strengthen the whole bone." (emphasis added.) 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Here is a workable technique for consolidating fossils.I recommend against white glue (polyvinyl acetate) as a consolidant because there are better materials available. (Normal prep lab dilution of white glue is one part water to two parts glue.) Rarely, a specimen cannot be dried without it crumbling, and white glue is the only reasonable answer. In my experience, white glue is messy and never looks good when the specimen is fully-prepared. A much better material for bone is a polyvinyl butyral plastic such as Butvar-76, but that material is hard to find in small quantities. I have used this plastic, dissolved in acetone, for many types of fossils. (I have used it successfully on Silurian-age shales with brachiopods, for example.) It penetrates well, and in the proper dilution it produces a "damp-looking" finish with no gloss. Butvar-76 (but not other Butvar varieties) is also soluble in alcohol. (I assume that is denatured alcohol that you can buy in gallon cans.) I have never tried this solution for consolidation. The alcohol takes considerably longer to boil off the treated specimen. So, what works best? I recommend a solution of Duco Cement (clear, like model airplane glue) in acetone. Acetone evaporates very quickly. Replenish the consolidant mixture with a bit of acetone if you are using it on many specimens. Store it in a tightly sealed glass jar. Even if some acetone evaporates away between uses (it always does, it seems), you can reconstitute the solution by replacing the acetone. Acetone is a nasty solvent. The fumes are explosive. The fumes are toxic. The liquid penetrates the skin-blood barrier. It's best to use gloves. Use in a well-ventilated area. --------------Harry Pristis I'm jumping over from another topic where Mr. Pristis chastised me for recommending glue or shellac for fossil preservation. After reading his posts here, I will have to respectfully yield to his expertise. However, realizing there are better alternatives, I continue to stand by glue, and I should have specified white glue, as an "in-a-pinch" preservative which has been used for decades. Superglue is best used for spot repairs. There was at least one study that concluded all superglues break down eventually. Shellac, even clear shellac, can slightly/noticeably darken a light-colored fossil but I have not seen any fossils negatively affected otherwise (no bones splitting) but the alteration of the color alone would be reason enough not to use it for most people. I have used this on those little pea crabs (Pinnixa galliheri, Monterey Fm.) from Carmel Valley for 20 years or more without a problem so far. Many prep people I know use Butvar a lot and one likes using Paraloid now. Butvar mixed with acetone is the best preservative for tar pit bones. I can say that. I looked through a few older books and at least one recommended Duco-type glue mixed with acetone as noted by Mr. Pristis. It sounds like he has tried many solutions over a decent period of time, so if you are new to all of this, I would print out his comments and stick to them. I will add my own warning against working with acetone without proper gloves and eye protection. It is toxic. Avoid getting too close to your work with it though the strong smell will often be enough of a clue for most people. Fortunately, it does evaporate quickly. When pouring it from the can into smaller, more easily handled containers, always follow the instructions. Unscrew the cap slowly and do it outside. I always do it away from other people in a shaded doorway. Store the can where it will not be sitting in sunlight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I'm jumping over from another topic where Mr. Pristis chastised me for recommending glue or shellac for fossil preservation. After reading his posts here, I will have to respectfully yield to his expertise. <snip> I thought of that post as a helpful hint, not a chastisement. Oh dear! Have I been too direct again! All of us, even the most knowledgeable and experienced like you, must stay alert to refinements in what we think we know. I am constantly making small corrections to my own certainties. Sometimes I stumble over something new and worthwhile; sometimes someone has to point the way to new understanding. I am sure that the need to contradict you here will be a rare phenomenon. I appreciate your deference to my expertise (which is too grand a word to describe my experience). But, please . . . "Mr. Pristis" was my father. Feel free to address me as "Mr. Harry." Or, as my closest friends address me . . . "Captain Consolidant." 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Well, "Captain Consolodant", when it comes to preserving fossils correctly, I place my trust in your vast experience and your ability to communicate it. (Maybe someday, someone will name a resin after you ) 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 They already have, HP Sauce KOF, Bill. Welcome to the forum, all new members www.ukfossils check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 They already have, HP Sauce Hi, Bill . . . I'm not sure that HP Sauce was ever exported to the USA, so your reference may be obscure to US subscribers here. I have only seen such bottles among imported British antique bottles here in Florida. Is this sauce still being made and sold in Britain? What is its nature . . . hot? . . . vinegary? . . . tomato saucey? I don't have an HP Sauce bottle in my collection, but I picked this image from an antique bottle forum that I read. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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