Sélacien34 Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Hello everyone, i need help to finish clearing a mystery that has persisted for years for French amateur researchers. In the Netherlands, noone knows either. I'm french and those elements came from Loupian, in the southern of France, the Miocene formation (Helvetien/middle Miocene) where H. Cappetta has discovered one of the richest fauna in the world. A place where can be found vertebrae of many bony and cartilaginous fishes, teeth or pieces of dental palace of species including sharks, rays, Sphyraenidae, Sparidae and Dentex fossilis, Pycnodontidae, Merluccinae, Labridae and also crocodilian teeth in the upper layers. in most cases, we can identify what we find, but sometimes we find ourselves faced with a puzzle. And it was the case for this curious fossil. Everything was discussed: tympanic bullae, epiphyses, coprolites, shellfish, Patela, suprascapula ... Finally I asked Dr. Maisey with the help of Roz, who recognized no fish, but referred me on the track of plants and pods. He referred pods Nipa. I bet he's right and that the solution is in this direction. These rounded elements are common, always isolated and it seems that they can not be linked to anything from the animal side. The formation of Loupian is a subtropical paleobiotope, neritic and transgressive. The shore is close, plant parts as large seeds could explain everything. So, now the question is : is there a paleobotanist or someone who recognizes those elements? Edited July 15, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 more pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 And more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Final pictures. I hope that someone will recognize that... Edited July 15, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 As requested, I checked with the paleobotany specialist at UO. Nypa fruits have different features so these are best referred to another palm: Sabalites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I am fairly confident that this is vertebrate material. I've copied a couple of your pictures that show structure that I think is typical of fish bony material. These might be hyperostosed bones. Here are the pictures. The red circle in the second picture shows tubes where I think blood vessels were located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Hello, so it's Sabalite's fruit ? Sure ? Thank you very much for this. Oh no... a fish ? I'll wait a little longer Edited July 15, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I am in agreement with Al Dente; the internal structures are most consistent with fish bone. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I am fairly confident that this is vertebrate material. I've copied a couple of your pictures that show structure that I think is typical of fish bony material. These might be hyperostosed bones. Here are the pictures. The red circle in the second picture shows tubes where I think blood vessels were located. selbone1.jpg Selbone2.jpg I'm only offering an expert opinion per the suggestion of palm fossils by John Maisey. So far we have paleoicthyology and paleobotanty specialists independently corroborating the same conclusion of palm fossil fruit (seed) structures. Let the debate begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) I'm surprised... I asked Dr J. Maisey about this... he doesn't think that it's fish or bone. "So far we have paleoicthyology and paleobotanty specialists independently corroborating the same conclusion of palm fossil fruit (seed) structures" I think it is quite convincing Thanks to everyone, special thanks to Roz. Edited July 15, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 They look phosphatic to me. I would think if they are seeds they are either carbonized or replaced with silica. Selachian34 would be able to determine the composition. Carbonized would be very soft, silicified should scratch glass, phosphatic won't scratch glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) Hi Al Dente, even if the smaller one (the darker) is slightly heavier than the other, they are very light as wood, the surface is smooth and evokes a porous material. You won't scratch anything with it. I think about carbone. Please tell me what you think. Edited July 16, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Very light weight, and not hard....I give up! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Very light weight, and not hard....I give up! Why give up when the answer has already been given? The fossil fish expert says it's not fish or any type of bones and suggests further investigation for fossil palm seeds. Then at the behest of the OP we are fortunate to have a fossil plant expert independently verify (including genus) the ID of fossil palm seeds. When you add it up, what are the chances that two of the very best paleontologists in their respective areas of expertise, each arrived at the same conclusion and missed it completely on an ID of fossil palm seeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Why give up when the answer has already been given? The fossil fish expert says it's not fish or any type of bones and suggests further investigation for fossil palm seeds. Then at the behest of the OP we are fortunate to have a fossil plant expert independently verify (including genus) the ID of fossil palm seeds. When you add it up, what are the chances that two of the very best paleontologists in their respective areas of expertise, each arrived at the same conclusion and missed it completely on an ID of fossil palm seeds? Good point, and I acquiesce by 'giving up' in the sense that I haven't understood what I'm seeing. I'm guilty of resisting because the micro-structures seem so...un-seedlike. (Not that I'd necessarily know what would constitute seed-like microstructures in a fossil palm fruit). A picture to compare to would quell my curiosity. I don't reject it, I just don't understand it. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The main difference is Sabalites is round and Nypa is typically ovoid. I will attempt to find additional high-quality photos but for now these are what I have on hand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The main difference is Sabalites is round and Nypa is typically ovoid. .....and Selachien34's are dome shaped with a concave base. I respect Dr. Maisey but his specialty is Paleozoic chondrichthyans, not Tertiary bony fish. We have no idea what pictures he saw and how closely he looked at them. We should always be careful when quoting a professional's identifications when we don't know exactly what they were commenting on. I spent some time looking at modern palm seeds on the internet today and nothing looks close to these. The papers on fossil palm seeds I could find showed flattened two dimensional fossils. I could believe that Selachien34's have been deformed by sediment load but it would be unusual for all to have the same deformity. His fossils appear to have a bilateral symmetry to them. I'm making the assumption that bony fish material is found at Selachien34's site. If this is true, then there is certainly hyperostosed bone found there too. Selachien34's material has the basic shape of hyperostosed fish skull bones. I don't have any pictures of the same type but I do have Pliocene fish skulls that have the basic dome shaped top and concave base. The color and internal texture of Selachien34's fossils is similar to what I find here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) It's embarrassing to admit it but i have to say that since i have observed the pictures... Something appears to be wrong with the shape. I wanted a solution but here there's still a problem... I found that. These are the seeds of the current palm Washingtonia filifera which is very close to the palm Sabalites primaeva ...I needed to see the seeds, i have looked several as Al Dente did and it doesn't match with my elements... even the surface texture seems different Edited July 16, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 (edited) I'm making the assumption that bony fish material is found at Selachien34's site. If this is true, then there is certainly hyperostosed bone found there too. Selachien34's material has the basic shape of hyperostosed fish skull bones. I don't have any pictures of the same type but I do have Pliocene fish skulls that have the basic dome shaped top and concave base. The color and internal texture of Selachien34's fossils is similar to what I find here. An hyperostosed fish skull bones with basic dome shaped top and concave base. Do you think about a kind of bony prominence a bit like this? Edited July 16, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The photos were given an additional in-depth evaluation today. The consensus still continues to be seeds for all of the posted photos. One change after looking again is some of the specimens appear to be from a different tropical genus, as of this writing, yet to be determined. The specimen of Sabalites I posted was not meant to be a match for the fossils in question, but illustrative for the overall difference from the typical ovoid form of Nypa. As an instructive example, look at the attached diversity of morphotypes for only one species of Nypa burtinii. Curiously, figure K is also dome-shaped with a concave base. Also attached is one of the original photos with an arrow indicating the seed position within the husk (exocarp). The others that are more flattened represent empty husks. I will post any details as new information becomes available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 You're making a good case, Scott; I appreciate the effort invested, and am enjoying the lesson in what to look for and how to see it. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herb Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go. " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) These are pictures of 2 other elements sent by a third researcher. You can see a surface with a different look in one of them. It's look like coral. And yes, i have thought to something vegetal like a dried or rotten fruit but I can not go one way or another, I do not know. I continue to look and listen to the development of ideas Edited July 17, 2013 by Sélacien34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sélacien34 Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 hi everyone ! I hope you're not too annoyed or discouraged by difficulties we face. Personally, I keep all due respect to the answer proposed by Dr Maisey and palaeobotanist. Other photos of fossil seeds could perhaps convince everyone on my forum. But at this point, I am forced to think about other possibilities.And I have something new : a sectional view of those elements. Does someone recognize this tissue? Compact bone or cartilage or something else? Thank you for your answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 ...I have something new : a sectional view of those elements... This is, to me, the most endosperm-like structure I have seen yet. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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