Nuking And Boiling Fossils In Water

[Bev]

DISCLAIMER! I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE TO TRY THIS!

Different matrixes will react differently. I am working with primarily limestone and clay.

THIS IS AN EXPERIMENT THAT I AM TRYING, THAT IS ALL!

I only put this up to know if anyone else has tried this - no need to reinvent the wheel!

But by the end of this post my experiments led to SUCCESS!

Has anyone tried this?

I'm assuming it all depends on the matrix. I just put a lump of dry mud in a glass of water in the microwave. Nuked it for 2 minutes. Poured the muddy water through a seive and got out some nice whole brachs!

Bev :-D

Edited August 27, 2013 by Bev

[Gizmo]

Ummm Brachs!

[Lmshoemaker]

Mud in the microwave or rock?

[Bev]

Well, I'm wondering if this would work with rock as long as it doesn't have metal in it. And you'll find out pretty quick if it does with sparks all over!

Has anyone tried nuking fossils out of matrix?

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bev

[pinkpantherbeekeeper]

Has anyone tried nuking fossils out of matrix?

Yes! The government tested this out in the 40's and 50's starting with Trinity! Just kidding. My concern would be any water inside the rock boiling and the increase in pressure from the steam, inturn blowing the rock apart.

[Bev]

I tried it on one rock so far. Have another in the nuker as I type.

Experiment 1 SUCCESS! I set the microwave on 4 minutes, rock in glass of water. Very hot! Use potholders to remove. The rock broke right where I wanted it with just my hands! Fossil out!

[pinkpantherbeekeeper]

Sweet! Did you try this on a fossil in dolomite?

[Bev]

I'm not sure about dolomite. But I just nuked two fossil hash plates and it works!!!

I was able to break them apart with my hands!

They seem to split along the fossils, not harming them.

Now, these were heavily hashed plates, all the way through.

I'll try a harder rock now... Keep you posted!

[Bev]

I just nuked a very hard limestone rock with a fossil in it (so I thought). Probably Prosser member of the Galena Formation.

Wow, emptied the glass and a whole bunch of other fossils were revealed! Amazing. Kind of like what you get with acid but without the damage to the fossils.

So, the rock was still very hard, but seemed to fracture more easily with a hammer - because it was hot? The area around the fossils was flakey and easier to get off with a pick. Several of the fossils lifted right off the primary one - pretty cool. :-D

Nice side effect... A very clean microwave! With all the steam it just wipes down with a paper towel. You know, the other half may not look so troubled at nuking fossilized rock if you clean the microwave every time.

Bev

[MarcoSr]

I wouldn't recommend at all what you are doing with a microwave. It is dangerous to you and your property and can destroy your fossil of interest. Matrix can look exactly the same as matrix where your microwave process worked and you could get a totally different result because of a slightly different chemical composition. I definitely wouldn't use a microwave on clay based matrix. If you can't control the temperature you could turn the clay to pottery which you won't be able to break down easily after you do that. Plus there are dangers to you, your microwave and your home if the matrix contains metals.

[Wrangellian]

If the method you're using on the matrix you have is working, then it works, what else can you say? I'd like to see pics of the results, please!

I have heard of (and even attended a demonstration of) using a nuker to extract ammonites/etc from the concretions we find up here, but I have never felt safe trying it myself, it just seems too messy and sometimes the fossils blow apart into too many pieces - it's hit and miss, and considering how few fossils I find I don't like those odds. But for someone with the skill and patience to reassemble the ones that break, I can't fault them. Just use an expendable nuker, outdoors or in a shed, is the only thing I can suggest, in case of explosions!

[Ridgehiker]

Sounds like fun. I'll have to try this with some fossiliferous limestone matrix. Most of the erosion in our Rockies are from freeze/ thaw cycles. I'll put a piece of matrix in the freezer for a day, then nuke it.

Initially I'd have thought nothing would result but now I'm curious.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Ridgehiker

[Vordigern]

I tried this out once and the concretion violently exploded inside the microwave a couple seconds before the buzzer rang, I figure I got lucky, if I had taken it out just a couple seconds sooner it would have exploded virtually in my hands and I would have been severely injured, please be careful

[Bev]

Well, I've been having FUN! I've been nuking the rocks in a glass of water with great success!

I now know how those guys at the fossil shows show up with boxes and boxes of perfect brachs and bryozoans and sell them for a buck apiece - they boiled a heavily laden hash plate, it crumbled and they just picked out the brachs and bryozoans! I just did it!

On fairly hard limestone the surface brachs just flipped off with a poke of the pick!

Northstar, please let us know how it works! I can see frozen and rapid thaw being wonderful! I don't know if I would just nuke a rock, or frozen rock without water, but in water, hey, it should work!

Good point Vordigren! I think my safety factor is the water.

Bev

[Wrangellian]

Maybe it's just the concretions that explode.. Anyway I'd be scared to put something in a glass in case it exploded, especially in hand as Vordigern warns, and being riddled with glass shrapnel.

What they generally do with Mazon nodules is soak them in a bucket of water for a time, then put them in the freezer for a time, and keep repeating until the they split. I guess the microwave would speed up the thaw time, but again, I'd be scared to try it as it is more violent which means more potential to ruin fossils, and I think the mic heats things unevenly - for instance mine apparently focuses the beam in a ring surrounding the center of the rotating plate, Who knows what that will do to a fossil. Maybe the water evens this out, I dunno..

Bev, I need pics of your results!

[BobWill]

Before you try this please google "microwave water explode". Apparently microwaved water can get past boiling temperature without bubbling and then the slightest disturbance will set it off in your face. Having something else in the container of water seems to reduce this danger but I wouldn't want to be the one to find out the hard way how large the object needs to be.

Edited August 25, 2013 by BobWill

[Bev]

Pictures and more experiments coming tomorrow. It is supposed to be 95-105 degree heat index, so I'm staying in the house with the air conditioning!

I'm sorting my fossils into 5 gallon pails labeled: Gastropods (working on the second 5 gallon pail), Hash Plates (also working on the second 5 gallon pail), Trilobites & Crinoids, Cephalopods. Protected by layers of newspapers. This week makes one year of fossil hunting. Well, I'm sure I didn't start collecting until the end of Sept., but Aug. 30th is when I first signed onto TFF and the whole "What's this?" started! LOL :-D

Yes, I think it is the water that protects the fossils. I would not put a plain rock in the nuker, that sounds dangerous. My maximum nuke has been 6 minutes, so far.

[Wrangellian]

When you say you're getting the brachs/etc popping out the matrix, I wonder if they have their shell intact or are they just steinkerns? That's the problem I have any time I try to separate the shell from the matrix; it's the inside surface of the shell that separates more easily than the more ornamented outer surface.

Looking forward to those pics. I hope when you sort them into different taxa that you aren't mixing localities..

Sounds like you're getting some of the heat that should be here - oh well, no problem with a few cool/wet periods in summer!

[MarcoSr]

I am an absolute fanatic when it comes to breaking down matrix to get at micro shark and ray teeth but wouldn't do what you are doing with a microwave. I hope you don't put in a piece of shale with trapped natural gas or oil into your microwave or even just trapped water. Some metals are incredibly dangerous if you are able to ignite them. You should not be encouraging others to use a microwave when you have no clue what dangers you are exposing them to if they follow your lead. Every matrix is different. I have worked breaking them down for years. You are exposing yourself and others to the possibility of severe injury to get at a fossil. Not very smart at all in my book. This is my last comment for this post.

Marco Sr.

[Fossildude19]

Bev,

I 'm not too sure it's a good idea either.
Boiling in a pan maybe, but the microwave just sounds dangerous.
Be safe.
Regards,

Edited August 25, 2013 by Fossildude19

[Auspex]

A pan of water on the stove would be a much less dangerous way to employ hot water to break down mud and clay.

Please, do not use a microwave for this purpose!

[Bev]

Disclaimer! I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYONE ELSE TO DO THIS. Different matrix can react differently.

Okay, I have decided to make "stone soup". I'm thinking that it is the boiling hot water and not the microwave that is affecting the matrix and rolling, boiling water should be even better.

I will take before and after pictures.

I will select a cross section of my matrix that is fossilized and give it the break test with my hands and the scratch test.

Then I will boil them and record how long.

Then do the break test and scratch test again.

IF I get different results than I did last night with the nuker, I will repeat the test in the microwave on individual pieces.

Read the whole post. This all started out with a chunk of dried mud last night and progressed. I have pretty much exclusively a limestone matrix and clay. Is the limestone dolomite? I don't know ask Caleb.

Also, I really like Northstar's idea of freezing a rock and then dropping it into boiling water. But that sounds like it could be dangerous, maybe heat the water up with the frozen rock? So I might mess around with that too.

Pictures and experiment to come after I have a few cups of coffee. It was well after midnight when I got to bed last night - so much excitement!

Bev :-D

Edited August 25, 2013 by Bev

[Ridgehiker]

I had one little blastoid stuck on the edge of hardened limestone. Nuked the matrix, tapped the rock lightly and the blastoid fell off cleanly.

Wrangellian, re your comment above. That's an issue with a lot of recent an Mesozoic molluscs...ammonites, pelecypods, etc. That nice textured exterior surface is often left in the matrix when popping out specimens in the field. Less of an issue with older Paleozoic specimens in which the shell material is physically altered.

[Bev]

I had one little blastoid stuck on the edge of hardened limestone. Nuked the matrix, tapped the rock lightly and the blastoid fell off cleanly.

Wrangellian, re your comment above. That's an issue with a lot of recent an Mesozoic molluscs...ammonites, pelecypods, etc. That nice textured exterior surface is often left in the matrix when popping out specimens in the field. Less of an issue with older Paleozoic specimens in which the shell material is physically altered.

Did you nuke it in water?

I'm that you have blastoids! We don't, that I know of.

[fossilcrazy]

Rapid changes in temperature of fossils in rocks, can potentially breakup the matrix and the fossils themselves (not a good thing) due to internal expansion/contraction forces.

Many sedimentary rocks like shale, siltstone, sandstone and some limestones respond well to slow warming to boiling in a water solution of surfactants like Quaternary-O or Rockquat.

That and a combination of an Ultrasonic clearner can make pristine specimens that survive the cleaning process.