Why Are Perfect Fossils Sold To Private Fossil Collectors?

[megabass22]

I started thinking of this when i saw this near-perfect Alioramus skull sold on Ebay (http://viewitem.eim.ebay.se/REAL-FOSSIL-DINOSAUR-SKULL-ALIORAMUS-REMOTUS-Trex-CRANE--DINOSAURE-FOSSILE-RARE-/281147948640/item).

Why are perfect fossils (dinosaurs in this case) sold to provate fossil collectors? It could hold up large amounts of research and scientific discoveries (such as this specimen that could end the Nanotyrannus debate and introduce a new species of ceratopsid: http://www.popsci.com/article/science/fossil-shows-dinosaurs-permanently-locked-fight?dom=PSC&loc=topstories&con=a-fossil-shows-dinosaurs-permanently-locked-in-a-fight). I understand that is about the money, but i still wonder, why the sellers would hold up brand new science to be conducted just to earn a couple of extra cash? Could anyone explain?

[Auspex]

Two words: "Property Rights".

Take heart; private ownership does not necessarily preclude scientific study, and many fine specimens would never be found and recovered were it not for their $$ value.

[Krazy Rick]

I started thinking of this when i saw this near-perfect Alioramus skull sold on Ebay (http://viewitem.eim.ebay.se/REAL-FOSSIL-DINOSAUR-SKULL-ALIORAMUS-REMOTUS-Trex-CRANE--DINOSAURE-FOSSILE-RARE-/281147948640/item).

Why are perfect fossils (dinosaurs in this case) sold to provate fossil collectors? It could hold up large amounts of research and scientific discoveries (such as this specimen that could end the Nanotyrannus debate and introduce a new species of ceratopsid: http://www.popsci.com/article/science/fossil-shows-dinosaurs-permanently-locked-fight?dom=PSC&loc=topstories&con=a-fossil-shows-dinosaurs-permanently-locked-in-a-fight). I understand that is about the money, but i still wonder, why the sellers would hold up brand new science to be conducted just to earn a couple of extra cash? Could anyone explain?

I kinda see your point, ....BUT ......... like all hobbies; say for instance model cars ( which I am involved with ) ...... I have sold built models & kits, to make room & be rid of the ones I was not interested in at a particular point of time .... no regret. same goes with fossils, If, or when , I can upgrade a specimen .... I certainly would consider handing the lesser ones over; by trade; or by selling .... I don't see the harm in that case.

[erose]

Fortunately there are many commercial collectors who do make their scientifically valuable specimens available to science. They often donate them or at least sell them at a reasonable cost. But most museums and universities do not have the money to pay the prices most commercial dealers ask. This all led to a very vocal contingent of short-sighted vertebrate paleontologists proposing all sorts of draconian regulations on fossil collecting here in the United States. It caused a great deal of heartache amongst all of us avocational collectors.

Hopefully someone will purchase the fossil and then donate or loan it to a museum or university for research.

[Ridgehiker]

Just a note on 'perfect'. Some fossils may be aesthetically pleasing but their scientific value can be limited. A few teeth in a Late Maastrichian Troodon mandible may be of more scientific interest than a complete TRex. An articulated pachycephalosaur limb of more scientific value than an Albertosaurus.

When we did a biostratigraphic study we were looking for everything...crappy fragments of coral, brachiopod halves, etc. Unlike for most of us, not cherry picking for nice display specimens.

Also, few museums are involved in broad paleo research....nor are geological surveys, universities, etc. A fraction of a fraction of fossils are ever a part of any study. Few palaeontologists are interested in specimens outside of their own narrow field.

Someone might bring a visually stunning specimen into the Tyrell Museum and after they are gone, it may end up on a back shelf with a thousand other specimens gathering dust. Or, it may be put out on display, but that isn't science.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ridgehiker

[taj]

Alioramus ...from Gobi desert? ...mongolia?

[Bev]

Two words: "Property Rights".

Take heart; private ownership does not necessarily preclude scientific study, and many fine specimens would never be found and recovered were it not for their $$ value.

I see WISDOM in these words!

[Herb]

Some people make their living that way, we may not agree with them but it is their right.

[DeloiVarden]

First off, there is no such thing as perfect when it comes to fossils . As for the real question at hand though, the fact is that most researching bodies lack the funds to spend every day in the field collecting and that is what it would take to rescue fossils from the very rapid natural erosion process. This is true of deserts just as much as it is the river. I will often go to the same river spot with only a few weeks between trips, and the river bottom has completely changed. Take a look at most coast lines, the rivers are plentiful and there is no way the few scientists on our states pay roll can keep up. I have talked with them and they are stuck in the museum or in field offices only dreaming about field trips. When they do get out, they can only cover so much ground. I know of a location of a mostly intact whale as we speak and have made our state's museum aware of it. Guess what, it is still at the bottom of the river with no realistic plan that I know of to get it. And then there is the simple fact that it is the public interest in fossils that funds most museums. If kids and adults interested in the hobby couldn't buy fossils, but were totally reliant upon their ability to personally find fossils, I would argue there would be a lot less fossils to go around and many folks in areas where fossils are not as plentiful would not even be able to get fossils. There would be less people with personal collections and a lot less kids interested. There is nothing like holding a real shark tooth at a tender young and impressionable age to fuel a lifetime of interest in prehistoric creatures. Having said all of this, it is important for all collectors to know, understand, and abide by state and federal laws as they apply to fossils and artifacts. Our state even has a mandatory reporting mechanism for both fossil and artifact finds and it is through this system that the proper researching bodies can often learn of novel discoveries. Though the collector retains ownership rights, they do have to make the finds available for further study by the state if requested. As many others point out, many discoveries have been made by amateur and professional hunters alike and I know that I am not the only one to have donated many artifacts and fossils to the museums including two skulls potentially belonging to a new species of dolphin. They were on the river bottom already exposed and already pretty beaten up by the tumbling process all river fossils eventually succumb to.

[-Andy-]

I started thinking of this when i saw this near-perfect Alioramus skull sold on Ebay (http://viewitem.eim.ebay.se/REAL-FOSSIL-DINOSAUR-SKULL-ALIORAMUS-REMOTUS-Trex-CRANE--DINOSAURE-FOSSILE-RARE-/281147948640/item).

Why are perfect fossils (dinosaurs in this case) sold to provate fossil collectors? It could hold up large amounts of research and scientific discoveries (such as this specimen that could end the Nanotyrannus debate and introduce a new species of ceratopsid: http://www.popsci.com/article/science/fossil-shows-dinosaurs-permanently-locked-fight?dom=PSC&loc=topstories&con=a-fossil-shows-dinosaurs-permanently-locked-in-a-fight). I understand that is about the money, but i still wonder, why the sellers would hold up brand new science to be conducted just to earn a couple of extra cash? Could anyone explain?

In my opinion, you are understating the importance of money to some people.

Imagine for example, a poor family in China who can barely farm enough to make ends meet. One day they chance upon the find of a century, e.g. a clutch of never-seen-before theropod eggs.

Now say this family is aware of the huge scientific importance of their find.

There's several things this family could do. They could inform their government about it, of which it is very likely officials will pay them a visit, thank them for their contribution to "preserving China's treasures", then seize the eggs...there's little reimbursement if any at all! In the second case, this family could also bring their find to a museum, of which they could be sincerely thanked for their effort and maybe have their family name shown next to the display.

OR this family could instead locate a rich fossil collector, inform him of the sheer value and grandeur of the eggs, and promptly be paid enough to feed their entire extended family for years!

As a fossil collector, my heart absolutely aches when I think of the tens of thousands of beautiful specimens not being studied or displayed, but simply left to collect dust in some random store. I would gladly see the fossil diggers who made the find, the museum for maintaining it, and the prepper paid and rewarded for their efforts. At least in the collection of private fossil collectors, these perfect fossils can be seen and appreciated.

Note I am fully in agreement that rare finds or those of scientific importance should be donated or at the very least, loaned to museums.

[Down under fossil hunter]

This is a very interesting topic and so are the responses.

I would like to add another viewpoint.

The skull of this particular Alioramus is from Mongolia and is illegal to own, very expensive fossils like these that come from questionable locations often lack very important scientific information.

This means that the fossils main value is its 'aesthetic' value and with this in mind there is a huge incentive to augment the specimen.

No institution would want this skull for its scientific value or more accurately would be willing to pay what a private collector would.

Here are two legitimate, associated jaw segments from the same species (Alioramus) found in the same location.

This is the exact same specimen after almost 80% restoration/enhancement and carrying with it a $200,000USD price tag and was sold to a private collector at the Tucson show.

With this in mind, another Alioramus skull for sale on ebay from a French dealer would most definitely raise the suspicions of everyone in the scientific community and in my personal opinion isn't too great a loss.

Monetary gain is a huge motivator for a lot of people, Caveat emptor!

[Ash]

I preferred it before restoration!

[Ridgehiker]

Ash

Agree completely. It's been turned into a knick knack....put a lace doily under it.

[DeloiVarden]

Looks pretty amazing either eay. Besides, we know many museum pieces are heavily restored fo presentation.

Edited November 5, 2013 by DeloiVarden

[foxtail]

Two words: "Property Rights".

Take heart; private ownership does not necessarily preclude scientific study, and many fine specimens would never be found and recovered were it not for their $$ value.

Fortunately there are many commercial collectors who do make their scientifically valuable specimens available to science. They often donate them or at least sell them at a reasonable cost. But most museums and universities do not have the money to pay the prices most commercial dealers ask. This all led to a very vocal contingent of short-sighted vertebrate paleontologists proposing all sorts of draconian regulations on fossil collecting here in the United States. It caused a great deal of heartache amongst all of us avocational collectors.

Hopefully someone will purchase the fossil and then donate or loan it to a museum or university for research.

Two words: "Property Rights".

Take heart; private ownership does not necessarily preclude scientific study, and many fine specimens would never be found and recovered were it not for their $$ value.

Also, if the day came where the government decided to actually put in place the draconian regulations proposed by many, a lot of fossils would disapear in a cloud of dynamite just like happened after the "Sue" debacle.

[Ridgehiker]

There's 180 countries in the world. This isn't about the United States.

I approve of our fossil regulations here. All types of scientifically importantly specimens come to light in Alberta. Nearly all important discoveries have been made by amateurs sharing their finds with museums, universities and the Geological Survey.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Ridgehiker

[megabass22]

Great and reasonable responses everyone!

[Auspex]

Also, if the day came where the government decided to actually put in place the draconian regulations proposed by many, a lot of fossils would disapear in a cloud of dynamite just like happened after the "Sue" debacle.

I don't quite follow the logic flow here...what 'cloud of dynamite', and how is 'disappearing in a cloud of dynamite' anything like what happened in the Sue debacle?

[Xiphactinus]

Northstar nailed it. "Perfect" and "scientifically significant" are not the same by any means. Our big Xiphactinus and other complete fish from the Niobrara Chalk are spectacular to look at, but in the grant scheme of things, aren't that uncommon. You can find big X-fish in many museums. On the other hand, the lone dino bone we found in Kansas and a small insect wing, both which would fit into a lady's shoebox together are MUCH more scientifically important, and that's why we donated them.

[foxtail]

I don't quite follow the logic flow here...what 'cloud of dynamite', and how is 'disappearing in a cloud of dynamite' anything like what happened in the Sue debacle?

Simple. After a lot of landowners werte given the impression that the government could just take the fossils if they wanted to, many property owners claimed that if they found anything, they would blow it to xxxx rather than let the government take it from them. Supposedly, and I realise that is a weasel word, but supposedly some of them did blow dinosaurs on their land all to xxxx. This came from some of the members of one of the MT rock clubs who I talked to a couple years ago.

[megabass22]

Another case of scientifically important fossils sold: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/14/historical-fossils-may-be-lost-at-auction/

[Missourian]

Another case of scientifically important fossils sold: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/14/historical-fossils-may-be-lost-at-auction/

I don't see why a fossil ending up in private hands necessarily has to mean that it is "lost". I can imagine private curation, particularly considering that storage can be inadequate and quite expensive.... or am I too idealistic?

[steelhead9]

Simple. After a lot of landowners werte given the impression that the government could just take the fossils if they wanted to, many property owners claimed that if they found anything, they would blow it to hell rather than let the government take it from them. Supposedly, and I realise that is a weasel word, but supposedly some of them did blow dinosaurs on their land all to hell. This came from some of the members of one of the MT rock clubs who I talked to a couple years ago.

The government cannot take fossils found on private land.

[Xiphactinus]

Another case of scientifically important fossils sold: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/14/historical-fossils-may-be-lost-at-auction/

The fantastic irony is that the X-fish in question is a Sternberg fossil. He was a commercial collector that sold to the highest bidder...be that museum, high school, or private individual.

I doubt he would have any issue with the museum selling a fossil he sold to them.

And as far as scientifically important....there are literally hundreds of X-fish in museums. If I put my head down and really had to, within a week or two of hard looking, I could get one. I have found 3 skulls and 1 complete. They are everywhere in W. Kansas. I think Nat. Geo. is guilty of a little hyperbole.

Edit: I now see that this particular fossil has been cited in papers several times. That changes things! That does indeed make this a scientifically significant specimen....again, not from it's scarcity or completeness, but because there are scientific tendrils pointing back to it.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Xiphactinus

[Auspex]

Simple. After a lot of landowners werte given the impression that the government could just take the fossils if they wanted to, many property owners claimed that if they found anything, they would blow it to hell rather than let the government take it from them. Supposedly, and I realise that is a weasel word, but supposedly some of them did blow dinosaurs on their land all to hell. This came from some of the members of one of the MT rock clubs who I talked to a couple years ago.

I can assure you that this did not happen to anything associated with the Sue case, and the rest is pure back-fence-talk hearsay.