dirtdauber Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 A friend and I collected on a creek that we hadn't visited since last Fall earlier this week. The water was a little high and murky but we lucked-out on a couple of rare finds, at least for us. The sediments are Upper Cretaceous (Maastrichtian), Selma Group, Ripley Formation. The first photo is a fish skull, as found, no preparation. Guessing that it is an Enchodus sp. skull. The other photos are what I'm guessing to be a large dermal denticle (thorn) from a ray. It is more than an inch tall (26 mm), 35 mm on the long slant, 26 mm on the short slant, and has a concave base. Thanks for looking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The skull is a great find. I think you are right that the other object is a dermal thorn. Similar ones found in North Africa were once believed to be rostral teeth of sawfish and were named Peyeria. It is now believed that Peyeria are dermal thorns of the sawfish Onchopristis. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squalicorax Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Very nice!!!!! My Flickr Page of My Collection: http://www.flickr.com/photos/79424101@N00/sets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowsharks Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Nice finds - cool fish skull! The skull is a great find. I think you are right that the other object is a dermal thorn. Similar ones found in North Africa were once believed to be rostral teeth of sawfish and were named Peyeria. It is now believed that Peyeria are dermal thorns of the sawfish Onchopristis. Good info! I was almost ready to saw sawfish rostral tooth myself as a best guess. It superficially resembles specimens that I have that are in fact sawfish rostral teeth, but they are from the Eocene. Daryl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The skull is a great find. I think you are right that the other object is a dermal thorn. Similar ones found in North Africa were once believed to be rostral teeth of sawfish and were named Peyeria. It is now believed that Peyeria are dermal thorns of the sawfish Onchopristis. Nice finds - cool fish skull! Good info! I was almost ready to saw sawfish rostral tooth myself as a best guess. It superficially resembles specimens that I have that are in fact sawfish rostral teeth, but they are from the Eocene. Daryl. Wow, really nice dorsal dermal thorn. I don't think that I've seen one of those from the US before. I agree with Al Dente. Cappetta calls very similar looking specimens from Egypt dorsal dermal thorns from Onchopristis. Those thorns were about 25mm high which also matches your specimen in size. Eocene Propristis rostral teeth can look similar. However, Pristidae don't appear until the early Eocene. Do you ever take small river gravel home to search? A lot of Cretaceous shark and ray teeth can be as small as .4mm. Onchopristis oral teeth would be bigger than that but would still be really small. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) awesome finds OP! Thanks for sharing. Al Dente & Marco, So did Cappetta move these "Peyeria" dermal scutes to Onchopristis in the latest Handbook update? We get these very rarely in NJ from the late Campanian, but there is yet no record for Onchopristis here. Marco, there are a couple of these posted on the forum in NJ threads, but they are definitely very rare. I don't have any and I only know of about 4 specimens in total among NJ collectors. They are always found as float so its not clear what formation or bed they are coming from, but either way they still would be latest Campanian. -steve Edited February 28, 2014 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lissa318 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Cool finds!!! Congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Siphuncle Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Real trip makers. I've been lucky to find a couple Enchodus jaws, but never any portion of what it was attached to. Excellent. Grüße, Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas "To the motivated go the spoils." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 awesome finds OP! Thanks for sharing. Al Dente & Marco, So did Cappetta move these "Peyeria" dermal scutes to Onchopristis in the latest Handbook update? That is where I got my information. The modern shark ray (Rhina ancylostoma) has identicle thorns on its back and head. I wouldn't be surprised if other species have had similar thorns throughout the fossil record. Here's a picture from the Fossils Online website http://www.fossilsonline.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1064 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtdauber Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Thanks all for the comments. Al Dente -- I hadn't thought of sawfish dermal thorns, but that sounds plausible. I wouldn't think Onchopristis, since I believe they are earlier than Maastrichtian and have not, to my knowledge, been reported from the Ripley Fm. However, I collected a sawfish rostrum (Ishryrhiza mira) from this location about 3 years ago, so maybe it could belong to I. mira. MarcoSr -- Thanks for the comments. Yes, I do sometimes take sediment home to search, but have not from this site. Most of the gravel-sized sediment here consists mostly of clay balls, broken crab and ammonite nodules, and a few quartzite gravel. The little sifting I've done at this site has been unproductive. Again, I appreciate all the comments. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 awesome finds OP! Thanks for sharing. Al Dente & Marco, So did Cappetta move these "Peyeria" dermal scutes to Onchopristis in the latest Handbook update? We get these very rarely in NJ from the late Campanian, but there is yet no record for Onchopristis here. Marco, there are a couple of these posted on the forum in NJ threads, but they are definitely very rare. I don't have any and I only know of about 4 specimens in total among NJ collectors. They are always found as float so its not clear what formation or bed they are coming from, but either way they still would be latest Campanian. -steve Steve Yes, that is in Cappetta's 2012 Handbook. I missed the thorns here in the NJ threads. Thanks for pointing out that they have been found before in NJ. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 MarcoSr -- Thanks for the comments. Yes, I do sometimes take sediment home to search, but have not from this site. Most of the gravel-sized sediment here consists mostly of clay balls, broken crab and ammonite nodules, and a few quartzite gravel. The little sifting I've done at this site has been unproductive.George George Most sites that I collect are like your site where it is either difficult to collect matrix or the matrix is unproductive. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 That is where I got my information. The modern shark ray (Rhina ancylostoma) has identicle thorns on its back and head. I wouldn't be surprised if other species have had similar thorns throughout the fossil record. Here's a picture from the Fossils Online website http://www.fossilsonline.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1064 rhina ancylostoma.jpg yeah i have seen those. remarkably similar to these Peyeria, but also quite a diverse assortment of sizes and shapes in that one specimen. theres probably quite a bit of informed guesswork with figuring out who a lot of these dermal denticles actually come from ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Steve Yes, that is in Cappetta's 2012 Handbook. I missed the thorns here in the NJ threads. Thanks for pointing out that they have been found before in NJ. Marco Sr. yeah sorry i cant find any links for you, but i think i remember who on here posted them if you care enough to search through their old posts ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) yeah sorry i cant find any links for you, but i think i remember who on here posted them if you care enough to search through their old posts Steve Let me know who made the posts. I would like to see other examples. I'll try to find the post. Marco Sr. Edited March 1, 2014 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I know Darwin Ahoy has one and I think Sharktoothboy. I think I also recall seeing one from texas posted on here, but not sure about that. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 (edited) I remember someone from Texas showing a bunch of dermal scutes from some type of shark. I remember because they were so cool looking. They looked almost like jewels. I believe they were different colors as well as different sizes. I'd love to find some of those. Ramo I found it, but don't know how to post a link. It was started by Lance Hall, called "Dent-A-Cull" Edited March 1, 2014 by Ramo For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 I remember someone from Texas showing a bunch of dermal scutes from some type of shark. I remember because they were so cool looking. They looked almost like jewels. I believe they were different colors as well as different sizes. I'd love to find some of those. Ramo I found it, but don't know how to post a link. It was started by Lance Hall, called "Dent-A-Cull" Here is the link. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/6667-dent-a-cull/ Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Steve, Marco Sr., everyone, Werner (1989) provided more discussion on Peyeria than I have have seen elsewhere. The article is written in German but I see that Peyeria is classified as a pristid. It would be the earliest by far if it is. I can't find my German dictionary but in case someone wants to track it down: Werner, C. 1989. Die Elasmobranchier-Fauna des Gebel Dist Member der Bahariya Formation (Overcenoman) der Oase Baharuya, Agypten. Palaeo Ichthyologia 5: 1-112. Munchen (Munich). I'm not totally convinced Peyeria belongs to a sawfish as I haven't heard of anyone studying its histology. An interesting thin section might come out of that. What if it's from some weird sturgeon or some other fish? Jess yeah i have seen those. remarkably similar to these Peyeria, but also quite a diverse assortment of sizes and shapes in that one specimen. theres probably quite a bit of informed guesswork with figuring out who a lot of these dermal denticles actually come from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Post #4 on this thread has a nice example:http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/15762-ray-dermal-denticles I did some quick research and there are published examples of these from the Maastrichtian Hell Creek Formation and the Fox Creek Formation with a mention of them being found in the Ripley Formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darwin Ahoy Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Here is a similar specimen from NJ, for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 What is the size of that Anthony? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I agree. North American "Peyeria" denticles would seem to belong to Ischyrhiza because that is the common link between the New Jersey, Texas, Ripley Fm., and Hell Creek Fm., sites. The extreme rarity of these denticles may result from them being more fragile than teeth. Even from the Kem Kem beds of Morocco from where they are most often seen, they are often found damaged. Perhaps these denticles are also rare because they existed only in a single row on the animal - if so, down the center of the back?. It appears that for whatever reason, the "Peyeria" denticles present in Onchopristis persisted in a sclerorhynchid lineage that included only Ischyrhiza because they are not found in association with other sclerorhynchids where Ischyrhiza is absent (none known from the well-sampled Maastrichtian phosphate layers in Morocco). Thanks all for the comments. Al Dente -- I hadn't thought of sawfish dermal thorns, but that sounds plausible. I wouldn't think Onchopristis, since I believe they are earlier than Maastrichtian and have not, to my knowledge, been reported from the Ripley Fm. However, I collected a sawfish rostrum (Ishryrhiza mira) from this location about 3 years ago, so maybe it could belong to I. mira. MarcoSr -- Thanks for the comments. Yes, I do sometimes take sediment home to search, but have not from this site. Most of the gravel-sized sediment here consists mostly of clay balls, broken crab and ammonite nodules, and a few quartzite gravel. The little sifting I've done at this site has been unproductive. Again, I appreciate all the comments. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greel Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Here is one from North Carolina. Similar to those I found on page 6 of the paper written by Phillip C. Sternes and Kenshu Shimada on the Late Cretaceous sawfish Ischyrhiza mira from North America based on new anatomical data. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greel Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Another angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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