SoreBack Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Hello Folks, We found this in Big Brook and I'm unsure of whether or not this is an ammonite. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Sure enough, and it looks like a good one: Turrilites. One of the more expert members can correct me. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 Thanks Auspex! We were hoping that it was an ammonite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 It is an ammonite, and one of the rarer forms there, a Didymoceras or Nostoceras (some authorities think the two genera are synonymous). These heteromorphs had a turret like Turrilites, but differed in that the last whorl (living chamber) becomes free of the earlier ones and loops down and then back up in a U shape. Your specimen is one whorl from the turret region. Turrilites is common in Turonian and Cenomanian aged formations, but is not found in Campanian or Maestrichtian aged formations such as are found at Big Brook. Don 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 Thank you Don, It is thrilling to find something that we've never seen before, especially in area of a stream that gets a huge amount of attention. After looking at photos of Didymoceras I think I would faint if we found a complete specimen! Thanks Again, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 It is an ammonite, and one of the rarer forms there, a Didymoceras or Nostoceras (some authorities think the two genera are synonymous). These heteromorphs had a turret like Turrilites, but differed in that the last whorl (living chamber) becomes free of the earlier ones and loops down and then back up in a U shape. Your specimen is one whorl from the turret region. Turrilites is common in Turonian and Cenomanian aged formations, but is not found in Campanian or Maestrichtian aged formations such as are found at Big Brook. Don Don, what's your take on the age disparity? I didn't think big brook was even as old as campanian. It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Don, what's your take on the age disparity? I didn't think big brook was even as old as campanian. Perhaps I phrased things a bit awkwardly. Didymoceras/Nostoceras are characteristic of the Campanian and Maestrichtian. Turrilites occurs much earlier in the Cretaceous, and was long gone by the Campanian. I think you are correct that Big Brook exposes Maestrichtian strata, not Campanian, so one would not expect to find Turrilites there. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Big Brook exposes middle late Campanian and earliest Maastrichtian sediments. There's at least a 2mya gap of missing time in between the two ages that is not represented. Some workers still claim that this time gap is somewhat represented by a very thin Mt. Laurel fm,, but thats hogwash based solely on outdated lithostratigraphic thinking. There have been absolutely no age correlative fossils that have been found at Big Brook (or the general vicinity) that could be attributed to that missing time gap, not even as reworked elements. But there is plenty of well dated evidence for the late Campanian and earliest Maastrichtian material. There are still some unresolved complications in this scenario, but thats the basic story. Edited September 1, 2014 by non-remanié 3 ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Steve, I also believe this is likely a Nostoceras species. I will get a definitive ID for you. Its notoriously tough to ID these usually fragmentary ammonite specimens from NJ. -steve Edited September 1, 2014 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squali Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 the strata correlation science of new jersey cretaceous is always intriguing with the transgressive regressive series of sediment deposition. The unconformities at formation boundaries and up stream erosion can cause fauna confusion. looking forward to this one. -steve, which formation is late campanian at big brook? It's hard to remember why you drained the swamp when your surrounded by alligators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Ralph Johnson says this is definitely Nostoceras pauper. Looking at the relevant references I don't know how he can be so sure, but he does have 10x more experience with this type of NJ material than anyone else and I would trust him on it. The Wenonah fm. is mid-late Campanian. This specimen must have come out of the Navesink fm. if it is a pauper. The preservation does seem consistent with Big Brook Navesink fm. to me. Of course, if the collector says it was found somewhere that only or mostly Wenonah is exposed, that could further complicate matters. If you can be any more specific about "an area of stream that gets a lot of attention" it might further validate the source bed and ID, but not necessarily. Edited September 2, 2014 by non-remanié 2 ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hashemdbouk Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 just reading the comments by everyone is exhilirating! It's fascinating to be in the company of such knowledgeable paleontologists/paleontology enthusiasts! this forum is amazing, and I enjoy reading all the topics that pop up, just so I can start accumulating some knowledge. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for the info, and keep it coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Ralph Johnson says this is definitely Nostoceras pauper. Looking at the relevant references I don't know how he can be so sure, but he does have 10x more experience with this type of NJ material than anyone else and I would trust him on it. The Wenonah fm. is mid-late Campanian. This specimen must have come out of the Navesink fm. if it is a pauper. The preservation does seem consistent with Big Brook Navesink fm. to me. Of course, if the collector says it was found somewhere that only or mostly Wenonah is exposed, that could further complicate matters. If you can be any more specific about "an area of stream that gets a lot of attention" it might further validate the source bed and ID, but not necessarily. Ralph has drawers of ammonites like you wouldn't believe. He has coauthored papers on the east Coast Ammonites and I would consider him about as expert as they get without being a PhD in paleontology. You have to go pretty darn far upstream past Boundary Road to get anywhere where only Wenonah crops out. Everything in the stream bed is suspect. Edited September 2, 2014 by erose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Thanks Steve! Please convey our thanks to Ralph as well. This came from approximately 200 yards downstream of the Hillsdale Rd. bridge. This was found on a lazy day of collecting with no shovels or long hikes through tick infested woods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Ralph has drawers of ammonites like you wouldn't believe. He has coauthored papers on the east Coast Ammonites and I would consider him about as expert as they get without being a PhD in paleontology. You have to go pretty darn far upstream past Boundary Road to get anywhere where only Wenonah crops out. Everything in the stream bed is suspect. And you probably havent seen the MAPS collection in quite some time. It has definitely has grown a lot in recent years! ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Will do! Nostoceras and Didymoceras are both rare from Big Brook and the other nearby stream sites. Most of the BB MAPS specimens are about the size of this one, or smaller. A complete one from NJ would definitely be faint worthy to say the least! NJ late Cretaceous sands, silts, and clays have fairly poor preservation potential for ammonites. I have only found a few pieces about this size or smaller at Big Brook. There definitely needs to be more work done on the NJ Didymocerids. The Nostocerids are a little more well known because of the old Navesink fm. Atlantic Highlands site. Downstream from Hillsdale makes perfect sense for a Navesink fm source. Of course there is still plenty of Wenonah upstream from there, but I'd say that location definitely is as expected, and further validates Ralph's ID. Nice find! Thanks Steve! Please convey our thanks to Ralph as well. This came from approximately 200 yards downstream of the Hillsdale Rd. bridge. This was found on a lazy day of collecting with no shovels or long hikes through tick infested woods! ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) For anyone who didn't click my link above.... Ralph Johnson, winner of the 2013 PRI Katherine Palmer Award. And definitely deserved!!! http://www.museumoftheearth.org/research.php?page=117513/835321/44680 Edited September 2, 2014 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Mary Ann and I were blown away by Ralph's collection but we were also blown away by his hospitality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Ralph Johnson says this is definitely Nostoceras pauper. Looking at the relevant references I don't know how he can be so sure, but he does have 10x more experience with this type of NJ material than anyone else and I would trust him on it. The Wenonah fm. is mid-late Campanian. This specimen must have come out of the Navesink fm. if it is a pauper. The preservation does seem consistent with Big Brook Navesink fm. to me. Of course, if the collector says it was found somewhere that only or mostly Wenonah is exposed, that could further complicate matters. If you can be any more specific about "an area of stream that gets a lot of attention" it might further validate the source bed and ID, but not necessarily. Thanks for the clarification on the stratigraphy. I knew about the Navesink, but somehow not the Wenonah on Big Brook. So far I have only collected there one time, and that was in December and I had to break through ice to get anything from the stream bed. I have met Ralph Johnson only once, when I ran into him in the field. He generously gave me a partial Placenticeras and a Scaphites hippocrepis, which I value greatly because they came from him. I see him as an amateur only in the sense that he doesn't get paid to study fossils, in every other sense he is a dedicated professional. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) As Ralph always makes sure to say, the MAPS collection is not just his, but it is a labor of many dozens of individuals over the past 4 decades. But it is true that the majority of material was collected by him, as well as all the prep work which is just as time consuming. And yes he definitely goes above and beyond to make the collection accessible to anyone interested in using it for research as well any amateurs who just want to see what NJ really has to offer to the extremely motivated collectors. The MAPS collection will be accessioned by one of the local museum repositories when the time comes... hopefully still quite a long time from now! Mary Ann and I were blown away by Ralph's collection but we were also blown away by his hospitality. Edited September 2, 2014 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 It can definitely be a little rough in the winter. I have been there and done that for sure! Ralph definitely takes his study extremely seriously and I'm sure would appreciate your kind words. Thanks for the clarification on the stratigraphy. I knew about the Navesink, but somehow not the Wenonah on Big Brook. So far I have only collected there one time, and that was in December and I had to break through ice to get anything from the stream bed. I have met Ralph Johnson only once, when I ran into him in the field. He generously gave me a partial Placenticeras and a Scaphites hippocrepis, which I value greatly because they came from him. I see him as an amateur only in the sense that he doesn't get paid to study fossils, in every other sense he is a dedicated professional. Don ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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