SoreBack Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Hi Folks, This tooth came out of gravel in the Shark River in NJ. I found it in 2009 and labeled it as a Whitetail deer tooth but now I'm just not sure. Thanks in Advance, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Definitely not bison or deer. Here's a picture of a lower molar from a Hemiauchenia macrocephala Miocene camel from north Florida. Edited September 26, 2014 by jpevahouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Fossil camels are all but unknown from NJ/Pa. I'd check the hypsodont modern artiodactyls first, like Ovis and Capra (sheep and goat), to eliminate them. Can you take a more directly occlusal view? I can't see if it has a llama buttress or not - but it looks like it might. From the Shark River, there is always the possibility that it could be Prosynthetoceras, although it seems relatively too narrow (labial-lingual) for that. This could be a very important fossil, if it isn't modern. It needs to go to someone to take a look at it! Edited September 26, 2014 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calhounensis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I would have this tooth checked out by a museum. My initial thoughts would lean towards sheep or goat, like Rich mentioned. Can you also take a picture of the base of the tooth. It looks like it might be a deciduous tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) I agree with sheep or goat. Not Prosynthetoceras. Edited September 26, 2014 by Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) A NJ collector claims to have found a camel tooth in the same vicinity a few years ago. However, I am very skeptical of camel remains being found in this area. The eastern range of ancient camels is farther south, particularly along the southeast coastal areas. Caribou is a well documented ice age animal of NJ. Maybe caribou, though I couldn't find a good picture for comparison. It would be more likely than camel for this area. Here's pictures of sheep lower molars, also very similar. Is the ruler in mm or inches? Size is a big factor here. Edited September 26, 2014 by jpevahouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 The ruler is in mm and I'll get shots of different angles when I get home tonight. If it turns out to be a sheep tooth it wouldn't surprise me as the area where this was found has an agricultural past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 All of the cervids (deer, elk, caribou, moose, etc. have very short crowned teeth (brachydont). This is a very tall crowned tooth (hypsodont). So your choices are things like camels, sheep, goats, or pronghorn. The only fossil camel I know of from New Jersey or Pennsylvania is a single damaged tooth described by E. D. Cope from the Port Kennedy Bone Cave near Valley Forge as Holomeniscus (Now known as Hemiauchenia). Beryl Taylor and I examined the tooth in the 1970s and agreed that it was a camel, but couldn't be determined any more specifically. So, most likely it is sheep or goat. But you'd still want to rule the others out. Rich The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Here's pictures of the molar a NJ collector claims to be camel found in Monmouth County. My guess is caribou but then I know of no documentation as to land finds of caribou fossils in NJ. All the known caribou finds are antler sections dredged off shore. Edited September 26, 2014 by jpevahouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calhounensis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Here's pictures of the molar a NJ collector claims to be camel found in Monmouth County. My guess is caribou but then I know of no documentation as to land finds of caribou fossils in NJ. All the known caribou finds are antler sections dredged off shore. Looks like a lower Bison/Bos to me. I don't know much about caribou or whether they have that stylid or not, I know bison and cows do. Camels certainly don't. The size is throwing me off a bit. Edited September 26, 2014 by calhounensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) The NJ collector should consider muskox, Ovibos moschatus (Zimmerman). There is a record from New York. The tooth is certainly not camel. Edited September 26, 2014 by Harry Pristis http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Not musk ox, either - they are much blockier teeth, and quite brachydont.. There are a number of records of musk ox from the NJ coastal shelf. http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/Ovibos_moschatus/specimens/collections/contributors/phil_myers/ADW_mammals/specimens/Artiodactyla/Bovidae/Ovibos_moschatus/lower_lateral/ Edited September 26, 2014 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Musk Ox finds are rare in NJ. Bison even more rare or non existent. I'm not familiar with any verifiable ice age bison fossil finds in NJ though the animal is listed in early papers on NJ Pleistocene fauna. Maybe someone on the forum has more information. My tendency is when in doubt assume the most likely. Caribou is the most likely since their fossils have a reasonably good representation in this area and the animal fits into the ecological context of post ice age NJ. I have a few bison lower molars from Florida. They are similar but there's something noticably different in the enamel ridges on this tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Rangifer is a cervid, a deer relative. This NJ tooth still looks bovid. This appears to be a modest-size tooth with crown height of about 3/4 of an inch. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Which molar are you writing about? The discussion now includes two different teeth. Neither tooth has a stylid that I can see which rules out cow. The small size suggests deer. Deer molars don't have stylid. Rangifer is a cervid, a deer relative. This NJ tooth still looks bovid. This appears to be a modest-size tooth with crown height of about 3/4 of an inch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Here's pictures of the molar a NJ collector claims to be camel found in Monmouth County. My guess is caribou but then I know of no documentation as to land finds of caribou fossils in NJ. All the known caribou finds are antler sections dredged off shore. Looks like a lower Bison/Bos to me. I don't know much about caribou or whether they have that stylid or not, I know bison and cows do. Camels certainly don't. The size is throwing me off a bit. The NJ collector should consider muskox, Ovibos moschatus (Zimmerman). There is a record from New York. The tooth is certainly not camel. Caribou (Rangifer) is a cervid, a deer relative. This NJ tooth still looks bovid. It has a weak isolated stylid. This appears to be a modest-size tooth with crown height of about 3/4 of an inch. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Cervalces m3 from NJ for comparison. Edited September 26, 2014 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 The bison record for NJ rests on material collected by Ernest Volk near the Abbott Farm in Mercer County back in the late 1800s. The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW9090 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) This is almost certainly Bos or Bison, possibly Ovibos. I got lost in the thread up above when I didn't see the post with the picture of the supposed camel, and thought we were all still talking about the OP! Edited September 26, 2014 by RichW9090 The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 Here are a few more shots of the tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Here are a few more shots of the tooth. Still appears to be a sheep or goat lower tooth. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoreBack Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 Thanks Harry. There's old farmland just upstream of where I found this tooth so it seems reasonable that the remains of a farm animal would wind up in the river. I doubt that this tooth will ever be in a riker mount! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Musk Ox might be a pretty good guess for the supposed camel molar. Musk Ox was a species present in post ice age NJ. This is almost certainly Bos or Bison, possibly Ovibos. I got lost in the thread up above when I didn't see the post with the picture of the supposed camel, and thought we were all still talking about the OP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Thanks, nice find. What area was the tooth found? Cervalces m3 from NJ for comparison. mnsq-d1.jpg mnsq-d2.jpg mnsq-d4.jpg mnsq-d5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I don't think a clear identification of these two specimens is possible from photographs alone, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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